Encounters: The UFO Phenomenon, Exposed!/Encounters - The UFO Phenomenon, Exposed (1995).iso/altalien/alt25.txt

Internet Message Format | 1995-10-20 | 772KB

Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ley Linesj
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 17:59:34 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

Dear Cary: Thanks for adding some real adventure to this collection.
I'm going to make it one of these years (posting from floppy disks that
is).
John Winston.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!bronze!indyvax.iupui.edu!tffreeba
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: zeta reticuli
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 8
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: indyvax.iupui.edu
Organization: Indiana University
Date: 22 Jul 92 21:31:12 -0500

To heck with how the Pleiadians ships work or how fast they go. HOW DID
THEY EVOLVE SO DARN FAST?  The Pleiades are bright young stars still
within their nebular cocoon.  They are along the order of millions of
years old.  It took life on Earth more than 4 billion years to evolve
to the point where it could walk upright, talk, and dream silly dreams.
Are the Pleidians child prodigies?  Btw the first prokaryotes didn't
evolve here until a billion years or so after the formation of Earth.
Thomas Freebairn
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!torn!watserv1!watdragon.waterloo.edu!watyew!jdnicoll
From: [e-mail] (James Davis Nicoll)
Subject: Re: zeta reticuli?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Waterloo
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 03:31:21 GMT
Lines: 19

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Steve Timpson) writes:
>
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Aaron Anderer - System) writes...
>>I was talking to my mom about some of the stuff I've been reading in this
>>group, and I mentioned Zeta Reticuli.  She said that she heard that star system
>>had a super nova quite recently, actually one of the larger ones.  Could some
>
>        WRONG!
>
>        there have  been  no  known super  novas  in  our  galaxy in quit
>        sonetime.  they  are  a  rare event and the most recent have been
>        extra galactic.

    A supernova within 40 lightyears would be very very obvious
(Apparent magnitude of ~ -21ish, I think) and could also be very very
bad, wrt our current ecosystem. None of the ZR stars are SN candidates,
though.

                            James Nicoll
Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.binaries.pictures.misc:8042 alt.alien.visitors:7477
Newsgroups: alt.binaries.pictures.misc,alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!Germany.EU.net!news.netmbx.de!zelator!leo
From: [e-mail] (Stefan Hartmann)
Subject: Re: Follow up to "UFO-Pic"
Organization: Puplic-Access-Xenix-System
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 01:09:34 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <6rfmyy=@lynx.unm.edu>
Lines: 27

Hi,
thanks for the effort to edit the Phobos UFO pic, but You missed the
point !

The "UFO" should be the "big white line" below phobos !

Did You view the JPEG pic which I had posted only on a 640x480 Monitor?

Then You probably missed to view the big line beloe phobos !

You just thought phobos is the UFO !

Have a look again at the original Picture I have posted and You
realize Your error !

Best regards Stefan Hartmann.
email to: [e-mail]



--

*************************************************************
*  Stefan Hartmann       This is how to contact me:         *
*  EMAIL: [e-mail]                          *
*  Phone : ++ 49 30 344 23 66      FAX : ++ 49 30 344 92 79 *
*************************************************************
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: astral travel
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 21:39:51 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 11

Dear Bill, S., K., A., G., and Lubbe: That is quite a question and
I'll try my best to answer it in full as time goes on.  The body is
devided in 5 or more bodies starting with the physical that we see,
then the astral, casual mental, spirtual and a few more thrown in
for good measure. In OOB experiences you loose the use of the physical
and start looking around with the astral or spiritual. In astral
projection you cause the physical to go into a trance state and
travel with your astral or spiritual body to go and see things.
The astral is a lower frequency than the spiritual and is a little
more dangerous to use.
More later down the line.   John Winston.
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: astral travel
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 21:43:08 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
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Dear Len. If you would learn to use these gifts such as telepathy
astral projection and a few others then no one would be able to lie
to you.  Everyone would be an open book for you to read.
John Winston.
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!pipex!unipalm!uknet!mcsun!news.funet.fi!polaris!sara.cc.utu.fi!shanwang
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: RE: Ley_Lines <<= Please cool down =>>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Jul 92 02:24:33 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Organization: University of Turku, Finland
Lines: 53
Nntp-Posting-Host: sara.cc.utu.fi



           Dear Alexi,

            Thank you so much for kindly help for Hillman. I am sorry because
    for a long time he is away from his Dept. for vocation and will  come
    back next week.

        Well, anyway please me to say please cool down for you  disagree-
    mant. I think most of your ideas about Lein-Line should be right. Any
    way you are well-experienced professional but actuallyhillman is only
    a young  innocent  enthusiasm  in this field.  I guess that the  only
        difference is your analysize method is a little different. I had read
    quite a lot of papers of UFO stuff written by this young fellow.   It
    seems that his  researching style is  relatively systematically,  but
        also too carefully and slackly. He always express his thankness to me
    for your genious  guidiance which lead  his inspiration.  But  please
    be patient or caution for a while because you don't know his  present
    subject and hindrance. I hope not from Carl, that fellow is so diffi-
    cult to deal with in some cases.
                             ^^^^^^^^^^^

        In short, please cool down, Mr. Alexi.  I hope time can  show more
    evidence to you about Hillman's present business. Haven't you fell any
    convenience on your Lab. ? For instance, some new research  utilities?
    Before Hillman leave for vocation,  he said that  those could be  very
        useful for your Corp-Cicycle investigation  research on your UFO Club.

        I hope later hillman can sent you some  good news and could  go to
        discuss with you face to face for your joint interested topic. But I'm
    afraid to say that  maybe he  is realy not  available for taht seminor
    because he is faraway from your place.

        Well, anyway thanks a lot for your kindly care for his paper. Hope
    later you can get more chances to do some joint research programmes. I
    guess you will like that.

        By the way, could you recommand me  some  E-mail address of  other
        enthusiasm who can make a important role in this Corp-Circycle  inves-
    tigation. If next week Hillman want to contact with you. Those fellows
    can forward tht news to you...

        Anyway, let's cool down for a while,  I hope  you can satisfy  your
    achievenent now. Ain't right. Please let's wait for a while, ok ?

            Thanks for your kindly consideration.

        Best wishes.

        Cheer:)
                                                 Yours UFOly

                         Auratapaa_Wang
Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7481 alt.sci.physics.new-theories:1980
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!sun4nl!alchemy!ruunfs!spiering
From: [e-mail] (Geert Spiering)
Subject: Re: Elapsed Time near c (was Re: Q&A on Extraterr
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Physics Department, University of Utrecht,  The Netherlands
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 08:03:18 GMT
Lines: 17

I hope this adds to the discussion, but since everyone keeps repeating
the statement that nothing can travel faster than light, i would like
to bring up tachyons.
Einsteins theory only states that nothing can travel WITH the speed of
light. This means that you cannot accelerate to above the speed of light
from velocities less than the speed of light. (An infinite amount of
energy would be necessary).
However there may be particles that ALWAYS travell at velocities > c.
The catch is, that these particles would have to have imaginary masses.
One could still associate real energies to these particles, that are
singular at v=c. This means that these particles cannot slow down to
velocities<c.
Of course, no one has ever seen particles with imaginary masses....

    Geert Spierings.


Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!usc!newshub.sdsu.edu!voyager4!melissa
From: [e-mail] (Melissa )
Subject: Erich Von Daniken
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
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Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 09:14:33 GMT
Lines: 28



Hi, this is Mike.
    I was just wondering if anyone out there took seriously
the theories and claims of famed author and traveler Erich Von
Daniken. While some of his statements are, I know, a little too
far-fetched and absurd to even be considered, there are a few
of his ideas which I've found to be quite convincing.
    I have all of his books and have seen his movies, which
were based on his writings. I cannot believe that, in all the
vastness of the cosmos, there has not been any visitation to
the Earth in the past. After all, we are but a very young planet.
    Responses?
                        Michael Whittington
                        [e-mail]


--
+=============================================+==========================+
|I have existed from the morning of the World.|    Ain't Love Grand!     |
|And I shall exist until the last star falls  |--------------------------|
|from the Heavens. Although I have taken the  |      Send Mail To        |
|form of Caius Caligula, I am all men as I am |   [e-mail]   |
|no man. And so........I am a God.            |  ignore melissa for now  |
+=============================================+==========================+
    Please send no mail to melissa, as I am on a friends
    account, and could quite possibly lose my priveleges.
    My address is listed above........Michael Whittington.
Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7483 alt.sci.physics.new-theories:1981
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!sunic!kth.se!vana!TORDM
From: tordm@vana (Tord Malmgren)
Subject: Tachyons (was Re: Elapsed Time near c (was Re: Q&A on Extraterr
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet)
Nntp-Posting-Host: vana.physto.se
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Department of Physics, University of Stockholm -- Sweden
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 10:51:48 GMT
Lines: 22

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Geert Spiering) writes:

[...]
>However there may be particles that ALWAYS travell at velocities > c.
>The catch is, that these particles would have to have imaginary masses.
[...]

 as far as I understood Einstein's relativity it was only valid with speeds
less than "c", and what happened with speeds larger than "c" it could not
predict, so as far as I understand these Tachyons need not possess imaginary
mass at all; maybe they could be real, but how they got into that state no
theory tells us...





---------------+--------------------------------
 Tord Malmgren | InterNet: [e-mail] | These opinions are my own,
               | BITNet  : TordM@SESUF51        | and NOT of this department!
---------------+--------------------------------
 Department of Physics, University of Stockholm
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!uknet!axion!achaplin
From: [e-mail] (Anthony Chaplin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Why America ?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Jul 92 10:46:10 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Anthony Chaplin)
Organization: British Telecom Research Labs
Lines: 25


I have a question for all you Phoenix Project fans out there

    Why America, why not the old Soviet Union ?

Think about it logically,

    1. Russia has vast tracks of barren, unpopulated lands. Compared to Russia the remote places in America really aren't that remote.

    2. Russia's air traffic control and radar network is much less comphensive than the USA's, therefore the aliens could come and go more easily..

    3. Russia, during the cold war was far behind the technology of the west and so would be willing to pay a higher price for alien technology ?

    4. People could be silenced much more easily in the old Soviet Union than they could in the USA (except if your name was Silkwood !)

Therefore if these supposed aliens had observed the earth they would have found the Old Soviet Union a much more inviting place to build K-2 ??

But let me guess they do use the Soviet Union for bases, and someone somewhere (who also forgot his camera) has seen it !

Don't get me wrong I don't have a closed mind to aliens (otherwise I wouldn't subscript to this newsgroup) but massive alien bases in the USA ?

Cheers

Tony
[e-mail]
Xref: news.uiowa.edu talk.religion.newage:10905 alt.alien.visitors:7485 sci.skeptic:27804
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: The Prime Directive
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 06:18:58 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
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Dear Fellow Travelers: Wow last night was really something else. About
23 years ago I became part of what is called the Sananda Sanat
Kamara Association. I volunteered to become an Empath which is a person
who takes on negative energy when something needs to be disipated. Last
night as I attempted to make contact with the people in this group by
astral projection things were going along pretty good and received a
good picture that was probubly one of the participants.  I then went
out of conciousness and received a lot of negative energy from many
sources.  At 0145 I woke up  and was in bad shape and with the idea
that I'd never try that again but I changed my mind and now plan to do
this same thing each wednesday at the same time. More much later. J. W.
Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7486 sci.skeptic:27805
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!thad
From: [e-mail] (Thad P Floryan)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Erich Von Daniken
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 06:21:02 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 61

In article <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] (Melissa ) [actually Mike] writes:

|     I was just wondering if anyone out there took seriously
| the theories and claims of famed author and traveler Erich Von
| Daniken. While some of his statements are, I know, a little too
| far-fetched and absurd to even be considered, there are a few
| of his ideas which I've found to be quite convincing.
| [...]
| Responses?

Whether one subscribes to his theories or not, I *am* grateful to him
for presenting (in his books) some interesting mysteries and photos
of faraway places that I probably never would have an opportunity to
visit.

Some of his critics need to "chill out" and sit back and enjoy some
of the interesting artifacts presented (whether man-made or not); it's
simply not worth raising one's blood pressure in anger!  :-)

One of the most incredible things (to me) that I saw in person was during
the early 1950s in the Smithsonian (in Washington DC); I believe it was in
the Natural History Exhibit, and was labelled as tracks of unknown dinosaurs
and/or reptiles.

Some actual (and identifiable) dinosaur footprints were present in the rock,
along with what appeared to me (and these were the ones labelled as "unknown")
to be the tracks of a military jeep.  Two parallel tracks with about a 5 foot
separation (for some 15 feet, in the slab fragment) which resembled today's
high-tech all-weather tire-treads.  Tracks which were made millions of years
ago. Incredible; I'll never forget that sight; and when I uttered that thought
out loud (I was only about 8 years old then), everyone turned around and
looked at me strangely, yet no-one made any comments or smiled.  [ See below ]

Kinda like that "spark plug" found embedded in a crystalligerous rock in
N. California as shown in a photo in a book by one of V.Daniken's "imitators."

Mysteries.  Fascinating stuff.

Thad Floryan [ [e-mail] ]

---------- enclosure

My recollection of those "unknown" tracks is that they appeared as depicted
below.  The tracks remained parallel even though they were arced and they both
curved to the left (which I cannot reproduce with ASCII graphics):

              |\|        |/|
              |\|        |/|
              |\|        |/|
              |\|        |/|
              |\|        |/|
              |\|        |/|
              |\|        |/|
              |\|        |/|
              |\|        |/|
              |\|        |/|
              |\|        |/|
              |\|        |/|

---------- end enclosure
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!munnari.oz.au!metro!extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU!jasonh
From: [e-mail] (Jason Haines)
Subject: NASA's Block of Ice!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: extro.ucc.su.oz.au
Organization: Uni Computing Service, Uni of Sydney, Australia
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 13:16:12 GMT
Lines: 21

I have just viewed the footage taken from the Space Shuttle, as shown on
Hard Copy (the Australian version), and I must say it is very interesting.

Firstly, to see an object change its direction of motion so radically is
an indication of intelligent control, especially when you see that it did so
to avoid proximity with a high speed object, be it a meteor or a rail-gun...

Secondly, the report on hard copy was pretty superficial, they had no
scientists to provide a professional opinion of the video...

Despite this, I must say that this video sequence show's the most significant
UFO in decades.

I'd like to see more discussion of this important piece of evidence.


--
________________________________________________________________________________
Jason Haines - System Operator, MacInTouch BBS [phone] (TeleFinder Based)
[e-mail]
________________________________________________________________________________
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: What the hell is a ley line??
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 06:32:25 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 6

If all goes well, I plan to be in Malibu, caif. in the parking lot,
at a litte after 900 AM, Sunday the 26th of July, by the Michael
Landon Memorial Community Center.  Robert Stanley plans to pick me up
there and we're going on one of his all day tours to the ruins of the
ancient city.
John Winston.
Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7489 sci.skeptic:27806
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!thad
From: [e-mail] (Thad P Floryan)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Elapsed Time near c (was Re: Q&A on Extraterr
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 06:40:07 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 28

In article <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] <Big Al> writes:

|  [...]
|  To the observer aboard the object/craft, other objects around it would
|  appear to be the ones moving. Again they would not appear to be travelling
|  at above the speed of light but in fact they would not be where they appear
|  to be.  Collisions would be unavoidable if navigation was based on sight.
|  Computers could adjust for known objects, but uncharted small particles
|  would be disastrous unless the craft was protected by a "forcefield", as
|  they would hit before they were seen. Using some means of detection other
|  than light, it might be possible to navigate ad-hoc at above-light speed.
|  Is there any such method?
|  [...]

Detection; hmmm.

It seems to me that a "mass detector" would be required.  Such a detector
"should" be able to sense matter.  Whether one would have the compute power
to resolve individual objects based on the massive (no pun! :-) sensory input
is another matter!

Are not the effects of mass (and therefore gravity) instantaneously permeated
thoughout the (known) universe?  Or hasn't this issue been resolved?  I'm not
a physicist, so consider this as lay speculation/conjecture; I visit SLAC and
other such places, and I'm in awe of the experiments they conduct.

Thad Floryan [ [e-mail] ]
Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7490 alt.sci.physics.new-theories:1982
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!decwrl!csus.edu!netcomsv!mork!payner
From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: Elapsed Time near c (was Re: Q&A on Extraterr
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 14:00:27 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 32

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Geert Spiering) writes:
>I hope this adds to the discussion, but since everyone keeps repeating
>the statement that nothing can travel faster than light, i would like
>to bring up tachyons.

Great, I'd love to see some. I assume you have a few from the way you
brought it up. :^)

>Einsteins theory only states that nothing can travel WITH the speed of
>light. This means that you cannot accelerate to above the speed of light
>from velocities less than the speed of light. (An infinite amount of
>energy would be necessary).
>However there may be particles that ALWAYS travell at velocities > c.
>The catch is, that these particles would have to have imaginary masses.

Then again, there may not. But all you need to do is create/detect
a few to get the ball rolling.

>One could still associate real energies to these particles, that are
>singular at v=c. This means that these particles cannot slow down to
>velocities<c.
>Of course, no one has ever seen particles with imaginary masses....
>
>    Geert Spierings.


Rich

[e-mail]



Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!odin!slugo.corp.sgi.com!rodb
From: [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith)
Subject: Re: NASA's Block of Ice!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Net News)
Nntp-Posting-Host: slugo.corp.sgi.com
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
References:  <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 14:41:01 GMT
Lines: 36

Jason,[you write]:

>Despite this, I must say that this video sequence show's the most
significant
>UFO in decades.

>I'd like to see more discussion of this important piece of evidence.

If you look back when this story first aired here in the U.S., you will
find a tedious amount of discussion on the piece of ice/UFO. Also check the
alt.skeptics newsgroup.

I also have a question for you folks DOWN UNDER.(That's AUSTRAILIA for
those of you who don't know where down under is.) I recall that about 3-4
years ago that
an egg shaped craft buzzed a family in a car on some highway down there. As
I recall there was some material released by the craft & it was retrieved
by the occupants of the vehicle. The material was brought in for analysis &
that was the last I ever heard about it. I think a fishing boat offshore
also reported
seeing the craft about an hour later. There was quite a bit of news on the
incident back then, but as most  news stories go , the press never really
follows up.

Rod


--
Rod Beckwith     |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Datacom I/S      |"The great obstacle of progress is not ignorance,
[e-mail]|but the illusion of knowledge."
                 |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$




Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!csc.ti.com!tilde.csc.ti.com!fstop.csc.ti.com!tidss1!alanj
From: [e-mail] (Alan Jones,AMJ1,)
Subject: Re: Why America ?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: tidss1.dadd.ti.com
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Texas Instruments, Inc.
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 14:04:05 GMT
Lines: 46

In article [e-mail], [e-mail] (Anthony Chaplin) writes:
>
>I have a question for all you Phoenix Project fans out there
>
>    Why America, why not the old Soviet Union ?
>
>Think about it logically,
>
>    1. Russia has vast tracks of barren, unpopulated lands. Compared to Russia the remote places in America really aren't that remote.
>
>    2. Russia's air traffic control and radar network is much less comphensive than the USA's, therefore the aliens could come and go more easily..
>
>    3. Russia, during the cold war was far behind the technology of the west and so would be willing to pay a higher price for alien technology ?
>
>    4. People could be silenced much more easily in the old Soviet Union than they could in the USA (except if your name was Silkwood !)
>
>Therefore if these supposed aliens had observed the earth they would have found the Old Soviet Union a much more inviting place to build K-2 ??
>
>But let me guess they do use the Soviet Union for bases, and someone somewhere (who also forgot his camera) has seen it !
>
>Don't get me wrong I don't have a closed mind to aliens (otherwise I wouldn't subscript to this newsgroup) but massive alien bases in the USA ?
>
>Cheers
>
>Tony
>[e-mail]

Good point.  In fact, why not Antartica, northern Canada, or the middle of an
ocean?  The only reasons I can think of would be:

  a.  They are working with Americans which require access to the base.
  b.  Their work is in that area (outside the base, assuming they must leave
      the base to accomplish some part of their work), and fuel requirements for
      transits to/from the more remote locations is prohibitive.
  c.  Their work is in that area, and transits to/from more remote locations
      would increase the probability of detection.

It really comes down to this - why do they have a base on Earth at all?

Of course, the possible existence of an alien base in the U.S. does not preclude
the possibility of bases existing in these other, more remote, places either.

---
sincerely,
Alan Jones  /  Texas Instruments, Dallas, TX  /  email=[e-mail]

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From: [e-mail] (Ithlial the Archer)
Subject: Re: zeta reticuli
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 15:02:33 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
References: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 33

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>To heck with how the Pleiadians ships work or how fast they go. HOW DID
>THEY EVOLVE SO DARN FAST?  The Pleiades are bright young stars still
>within their nebular cocoon.  They are along the order of millions of
>years old.  It took life on Earth more than 4 billion years to evolve
>to the point where it could walk upright, talk, and dream silly dreams.
>Are the Pleidians child prodigies?  Btw the first prokaryotes didn't
>evolve here until a billion years or so after the formation of Earth.
>Thomas Freebairn

Indeed, unless current theories of planetary formation are WAY off
any planets that may have formed in around the stars in the cluster
would still be mostly molten!  Pretty tough guys if they live in
that type of enviroment.

Ithlial



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    An Extensive Air Shower Array at the Meson Physics Facility
              Los Alamos National Labs

____________________________________________________________________________

My opinions are my own, don't you dare give someone else credit for them!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: ***Good_Luck_for_Your_Astral_Convey***
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Jul 92 14:43:07 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Organization: University of Turku, Finland
Lines: 21
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********************************************************************************
>>                                                                           >>
>>    Dear Alexi,                                                          >>
>>                                                                           >>
>>    Good luck for your Astral Convey Experiment. I hope it will goes     >>
>>    perfectly and successly.                                             >>
>>                                                                         >>
>>    Hope you can find that Crystal Star on X-1367 gallexy. But  take     >>
>>      care of the black hole on your way...                                >>
>>                        ---Captain. of Starshuttle   >>
>>                                                     >>
>>                           John. K. Hillman          >>
>>                                                                           >>
********************************************************************************
>>                                                                           >>
>>    Excuse me this is a short paragraph translated into English.         >>
>>                                                                           >>
>>    The original resource is found from The ruins of  UFO craft.         >>
>>                                                                           >>
********************************************************************************
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Ithlial the Archer)
Subject: Re: zeta reticuli?
Message-ID: <nxgmw=[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 15:23:11 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 28

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (James Davis Nicoll) writes:
>
>    A supernova within 40 lightyears would be very very obvious
>(Apparent magnitude of ~ -21ish, I think) and could also be very very
>bad, wrt our current ecosystem. None of the ZR stars are SN candidates,
>though.
>
>                            James Nicoll

Another thing to think about is if the star had been a supernovae
candidate it would have been a red giant.  Which means that (a) it
would have been around apparent mag -6 or so and (b) it would have
engulfed or nearly engulfed any planets with orbtial radii similar
to the earth's (ie the range of orbital radii within which it is
thought necessary for a planet to have to be habital.)

Ithlial


My opinions, mine, mine, mine!

I bet the main reason the police keep people away from a plane crash
is they don't want anybody walking in and lying down in the crash
stuff, then, when some comes up, act like they just woke up and go,
"What, was THAT?!"



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From: [e-mail] (Ithlial the Archer)
Subject: Re: astral travel
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 15:29:47 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 20

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Len. If you would learn to use these gifts such as telepathy
>astral projection and a few others then no one would be able to lie
>to you.  Everyone would be an open book for you to read.
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>John Winston.


Gosh, isn't that a pleasant thought!


My opinions, mine, mine, mine!

I bet the main reason the police keep people away from a plane crash
is they don't want anybody walking in and lying down in the crash
stuff, then, when some comes up, act like they just woke up and go,
"What, was THAT?!"



Path: news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!kuhub.cc.ukans.edu!wellison
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Roswell Museum (UFO Engima)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Jul 92 11:03:45 CDT
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services
Lines: 11

In case anyone is travelling through Roswell, there is a museum there called
the 'UFO ENIGMA'. The curator is John Price and he did a excellent job in
re-creating the Roswell crash (complete with a saucer and four life sized
greys) from the available data. There are many actual newspaper articles and
documents about the crash at the museum. I spent three days down there while on
my way to the MUFON conference and met Clifford Stone (author of UFO Enigma)
while I was there. Great people. There is another museum in the works by Glenn
Dennis and Walter Haut in Roswell as well. If you go through, the museum is a
must see.

-=-=- Wes =-=-=
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From: [e-mail] (Robert McGrath)
Subject: Re: Erich Von Daniken
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Database (admin-Mike Schwager))
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
References:  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 17:01:48 GMT
Lines: 42

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Thad P Floryan) writes in part:
|> Whether one subscribes to his theories or not, I *am* grateful to him
|> for presenting (in his books) some interesting mysteries and photos
|> of faraway places that I probably never would have an opportunity to
|> visit.
|>
|> Some of his critics need to "chill out" and sit back and enjoy some
|> of the interesting artifacts presented (whether man-made or not); it's
|> simply not worth raising one's blood pressure in anger!  :-)
Tastes differ.  I have always found VD's stuff both boring and bogus.
REAL mysteries and archeology are much more interesting than VD's stuff,
as is REAL science fiction.  Unfortunately, his readers may never discover
that fact.

Anyway, I despise liars, and as I grow older I find it more and
more difficult to "chill out" about blatant and insincere dishonesty.

|> One of the most incredible things (to me) that I saw in person was during
|> the early 1950s in the Smithsonian (in Washington DC); I believe it was in
|> the Natural History Exhibit, and was labelled as tracks of unknown dinosaurs
|> and/or reptiles.
|>
|> Some actual (and identifiable) dinosaur footprints were present in the rock,
|> along with what appeared to me (and these were the ones labelled as "unknown")
|> to be the tracks of a military jeep.  Two parallel tracks with about a 5 foot
|> separation (for some 15 feet, in the slab fragment) which resembled today's
|> high-tech all-weather tire-treads.  Tracks which were made millions of years
|> ago. Incredible; I'll never forget that sight; and when I uttered that thought
|> out loud (I was only about 8 years old then), everyone turned around and
|> looked at me strangely, yet no-one made any comments or smiled.  [ See below ]
Incredible is the word.  This would be a lot harder to understand if I
hadn't read the classic science fiction story of that time from which
this little joke was taken.

Is there a correlation between reading science fiction and finding
VD and Forteans boring?  Maybe a cultivated Sense of Wonder raises
the level of Wonder you need to feel excited.

--
  Robert E. McGrath
  Urbana Illinois
  [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Ithlial the Archer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Subject: Supraluminal v (was Re: Elapsed Time near c )
Message-ID: <v1gm![e-mail]>
Date: 23 Jul 92 17:23:17 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Lines: 81

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Geert Spiering) writes:
>I hope this adds to the discussion, but since everyone keeps repeating
>the statement that nothing can travel faster than light, i would like

Hmm, what velocity do photons travel at?  I think you mean to say
that nothing with a rest mass can travel at c.

>to bring up tachyons.
>Einsteins theory only states that nothing can travel WITH the speed of
>light. This means that you cannot accelerate to above the speed of light
>from velocities less than the speed of light. (An infinite amount of
>energy would be necessary).
>However there may be particles that ALWAYS travell at velocities > c.
>The catch is, that these particles would have to have imaginary masses.
>One could still associate real energies to these particles, that are

No, the energy would be imaginary.  The relativistic formula for total
energy is E^2 = m^2*c^4 + p^2*c^2 = m^2*c^4 + m^2*gamma^2*v^2*c^2.
Where m is the rest mass (positive real) and gamma is the relativistic
factor equal to 1/sqrt(1-(v^2/c^2)) which for v > c is imaginary.
Thus the first term is positive real and the second is negative
real.  But the second term is larger in magnitude that the first:

    E^2 = m^2*c^4 + m^2*v^2*c^2/(1-v^2/c^2)

we're only worried about the sign so I'm going to divide out the postive
things (rest mass and c), now we have E^2 is propotional to,

     1 + (v^2/c^2)/(1-v^2c/^2)

putting it all over a common denominator,

        = (1-(v^2/c^2) + (v^2/c^2))/(1-v^2/c^2)
        = 1/(1-v^2/c^2)

which always negative since v>c and the square root of a negative
is imaginary.

>singular at v=c. This means that these particles cannot slow down to
>velocities<c.
>Of course, no one has ever seen particles with imaginary masses....

Especially because at there extension in space in the direction of
their progation is imaginary too, which I guess would make them two
dimensional?

>
>    Geert Spierings.
>

An interesting argument that I have heard is that if time is quantized
(the hypothetical quanta of time is called a 'chronon') then you might
be able to skip going exactly c and your next quanta of  velocity would
be greater than c.  Mind you this is pure spectulation and I'm relating
this since I think its relevant to the discussion not because I necessarily
think it's possible.  In any event on would have question how small the
quanta is since te highest energy cosmic rays possess gamma factors of
10^11 (100,000,000,000) which translates into a velocity of
0.99999999999999999999995 the speed of light, meaning that the alleged
'chronon' is pretty damn small!  So if we are to get glose enough to
c to make the little hop to the 'other side' we're going to need
alot of energy.

Just a different way of looking at it.  Relativity and supraluminal
velocities are really strange.  And of course who knows if these
equations really describe supraluminal phenomena anyhow!

Ithlial the Archer


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               X         X     X   X  XX XXX  XX  XX      X
               XXXXX     X     XXXXX  XX  XX  XXXXXX  XXXXX

    An Extensive Air Shower Array at the Meson Physics Facility
              Los Alamos National Labs


My opinions are my own, don't you dare give someone else credit for them!
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From: [e-mail] (Michael Such)
Subject: Re: Elapsed Time near c (was Re: Q&A on Extraterr
Organization: netmbx, Berlin, Germany
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 17:32:24 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 46

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Tom Clune) writes:
>A while back, some astronomers noticed some jets associated with galaxies that
>"appeared" to exceed the speed of light.  The simple resolution of this paradox
>is relevant to this discussion.
>
>Suppose a ship takes off from a star 10 light years away, and heads straight
>toward Earth.  Lets assume the ship quickly attains the speed of 90%
>of the speed of light (relative to the earth).
>At first we on Earth see nothing.  In fact only after ten years do we see
>the ship take off.  (Of course being scientists, we can then infer the original
>departure time by extrapolation.).  The ship reaches us 11.1 years after
>its departure.  Hence, a naive observer on the Earth "sees" the ship travel
>10 light years in only 1.1 years.  There is no contradiction with relativity
>here.
>
>In fact, by playing with the numbers one can arrange situations
>in which arbitrarily high speeds are "observed".  Once the propagation speed
>of the light we are using for observation is taken into account though, all
>relative velocities will be found to be less than the speed of light (according to
>special relativity, which seems prettyy well established by experiment).
>
>- Tom
>

I had an interesting thought...

If a vehicle came towards us faster than the speed of light, we would
only see it after it had passed us, and it would appear to go backwards
right?

I don't know no anything about relativity, but here's another thought...

You stick a person into a (say) faster than light subway.  the subway
travels at (say) twice the speed of light and you give him some sandwiches
and some tea and tell him to stay on the tube for ten years, after which
he can get off, now what happens when the subway reaches the final station
after ten years (train time), does a guy get off who is ten years older
and find that a lot of older people are wondering why the train decided to
keep on going for 100 years, or is it that the train stops after 2 years
and a man who is 2 years older see's a lot of people who are 10 years
older?  or wouldn't this work on a subway?

Mike
--
                              Mike Such
                       NETMBX - Berlin, Germany
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From: [e-mail] (SCOTT I CHASE)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Subject: Re: Tachyons (was Re: Elapsed Time near c (was Re: Q&A on Extraterr
Date: 23 Jul 92 19:04:16 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory - Berkeley, CA, USA
Lines: 18
Distribution: na
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In article <[e-mail]>, tordm@vana (Tord Malmgren) writes...
>
> as far as I understood Einstein's relativity it was only valid with speeds
>less than "c", and what happened with speeds larger than "c" it could not
>predict, so as far as I understand these Tachyons need not possess imaginary
>mass at all; maybe they could be real, but how they got into that state no
>theory tells us...

Not so.  There is a very nice entry in the sci.physics faq (I should know -
I wrote it!) on the subject of tachyons.  I recommend it to all.

-Scott
--------------------
Scott I. Chase            "The question seems to be of such a character
[e-mail]        that if I should come to life after my death
                and some mathematician were to tell me that it
                had been definitely settled, I think I would
                immediately drop dead again."      - Vandiver
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Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!darwin.sura.net!jvnc.net!glassboro.edu!cass8806
From: [e-mail] (KYLE CASSIDY)
Subject: Re: The Prime Directive
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: bizlab210.glassboro.edu
Organization: Glassboro State College, Glassboro, NJ
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 17:53:38 GMT
Lines: 17

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

>Dear Everybody: I don't have time to say much. A person by the name
>of Kumar in Germany has been sending me E-mail and my E-mail has not
>been getting back to him so I sent him a telepathic message. He wrote
>me yesterday that he was aware of me sending him a telepathic message
>and that I had woken him up and had also appeared in his dreams. This
>has happened to me and other people before. On sunday and monday nights
>I did a little warm up astral projection.  Remember tonight at 1100 PM
>it the time we'll do the experiment.
>John Winston.

that's AMAZING! Kumar has been appearing in MY dreams too! though in the
guise of a shoe salesman trying to sell filet mignon to sandinista rebels
with inflamed salvatory glands!!

what could this mean?
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From: [e-mail] (Crunchy Frog)
Subject: Re: The Prime Directive
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 18:29:15 GMT
Lines: 27

In article <[e-mail]>
  [e-mail] (KYLE CASSIDY) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>>Dear Everybody: I don't have time to say much. A person by the name
>>of Kumar in Germany has been sending me E-mail and my E-mail has not
>>been getting back to him so I sent him a telepathic message. He wrote
>>me yesterday that he was aware of me sending him a telepathic message
>>and that I had woken him up and had also appeared in his dreams. This
>>has happened to me and other people before. On sunday and monday nights
>>I did a little warm up astral projection.  Remember tonight at 1100 PM
>>it the time we'll do the experiment.
>>John Winston.
>
>that's AMAZING! Kumar has been appearing in MY dreams too! though in the
>guise of a shoe salesman trying to sell filet mignon to sandinista rebels
>with inflamed salvatory glands!!
>
>what could this mean?

I think it means you need to lay off the medication for a few weeks.

(BTW - John Winston has been appearing in my dreams too.  He is usually
wearing leather and has a Golden retreiver and about 10 containers of
whipped cream with him.  Scares the shit out of me).

C Frog
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: zeta reticuli?
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Date: 23 Jul 92 14:12:46 -0500

In article <nxgmw=[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Ithlial the Archer) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (James Davis Nicoll) writes:
>>
>>    A supernova within 40 lightyears would be very very obvious
>>(Apparent magnitude of ~ -21ish, I think) and could also be very very
>>bad, wrt our current ecosystem. None of the ZR stars are SN candidates,
>>though.
>>
>>                            James Nicoll
>
> Another thing to think about is if the star had been a supernovae
> candidate it would have been a red giant.  Which means that (a) it
> would have been around apparent mag -6 or so and (b) it would have
> engulfed or nearly engulfed any planets with orbtial radii similar
> to the earth's (ie the range of orbital radii within which it is
> thought necessary for a planet to have to be habital.)
>
> Ithlial

Just to be the >:-)> advocate: would not the "comfort zone" for planetary
radii be moved outward for a star massive enough to become a red giant?
Not that the fact that the star turned into a red giant would not destroy
the environment of any habitable planet no matter what its orbital radii
was (or that such a star would not stick around long enough to evovle
higher life.)

Thomas Freebairn  * I wish I had an employer
          * whose opinions mine were not.
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From: mdl@phelixsalt (Michael Lynch)
Subject: Re: The Prime Directive
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
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Reply-To: mdl@phelixsalt (Michael Lynch)
Organization: Bellcore
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Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 19:12:18 GMT
Lines: 36

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Crunchy Frog) writes:
|> In article <[e-mail]>
|>   [e-mail] (KYLE CASSIDY) writes:
|> >In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
|> >
|> >>Dear Everybody: I don't have time to say much. A person by the name
|> >>of Kumar in Germany has been sending me E-mail and my E-mail has not
|> >>been getting back to him so I sent him a telepathic message. He wrote
|> >>me yesterday that he was aware of me sending him a telepathic message
|> >>and that I had woken him up and had also appeared in his dreams. This
|> >>has happened to me and other people before. On sunday and monday nights
|> >>I did a little warm up astral projection.  Remember tonight at 1100 PM
|> >>it the time we'll do the experiment.
|> >>John Winston.
|> >
|> >that's AMAZING! Kumar has been appearing in MY dreams too! though in the
|> >guise of a shoe salesman trying to sell filet mignon to sandinista rebels
|> >with inflamed salvatory glands!!
|> >
|> >what could this mean?
|>
|> I think it means you need to lay off the medication for a few weeks.
|>
|> (BTW - John Winston has been appearing in my dreams too.  He is usually
|> wearing leather and has a Golden retreiver and about 10 containers of
|> whipped cream with him.  Scares the shit out of me).
|>
|> C Frog


I had a dream that grey empaths dressed in black had taken over New
Jersey.....


Mike

Xref: news.uiowa.edu talk.religion.newage:10917 alt.alien.visitors:7506 sci.skeptic:27825
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!dtix!darwin.sura.net!wupost!sdd.hp.com!usc!news.bbn.com!ingria
From: [e-mail] (Bob Ingria)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: The Prime Directive
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Jul 92 19:50:22 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Lines: 31
NNTP-Posting-Host: bbn.com
In-reply-to: [e-mail]'s message of 23 Jul 92 17:53:38 GMT

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (KYLE CASSIDY) writes:
   In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

   >Dear Everybody: I don't have time to say much. A person by the name
   >of Kumar in Germany has been sending me E-mail and my E-mail has not
   >been getting back to him so I sent him a telepathic message. He wrote
   >me yesterday that he was aware of me sending him a telepathic message
   >and that I had woken him up and had also appeared in his dreams. This
   >has happened to me and other people before. On sunday and monday nights
   >I did a little warm up astral projection.  Remember tonight at 1100 PM
   >it the time we'll do the experiment.
   >John Winston.

   that's AMAZING! Kumar has been appearing in MY dreams too! though in the
   guise of a shoe salesman trying to sell filet mignon to sandinista rebels
   with inflamed salvatory glands!!

   what could this mean?

Either:

    The owls are not what they seem

or:

    John_-_Winston is a bit of underdone potato(e)

-30-
Bob

``We're searching the universe for habitable life.''
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!dtix!darwin.sura.net!mips!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!agate!ames!news.hawaii.edu!hubble!kiernan
From: [e-mail] (Elaine Kiernan)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: UFO books
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Jul 92 19:32:17 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (News Service)
Organization: Institute for Astronomy, Hawaii
Lines: 15
Nntp-Posting-Host: hubble.ifa.hawaii.edu


Hi folks,
    I'd like to read some good books on UFO's etc.
What's your favorite UFO book?
    The kind of book I'd like to find has objective accounts
of "what happened" e.g. abductees' experiences, eyewitness accounts,
etc. I'm not really interested in theories or philosophies,
just the facts, know what I mean?
    Anyway, it would be interesting to see what everyone
has read! Thanks!

    Live long and prosper,
    Elaine

    [e-mail]
Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7508 sci.skeptic:27829
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!darwin.sura.net!mips!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!umeecs!umn.edu!lynx!carina.unm.edu!cary
From: [e-mail] (Ithlial the Archer)
Subject: Re: Elapsed Time near c (was Re: Q&A on Extraterr
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 20:54:51 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 30

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Thad P Floryan) writes:
>
>Are not the effects of mass (and therefore gravity) instantaneously permeated
>thoughout the (known) universe?  Or hasn't this issue been resolved?  I'm not
>a physicist, so consider this as lay speculation/conjecture; I visit SLAC and
>other such places, and I'm in awe of the experiments they conduct.
>
>Thad Floryan [ [e-mail] ]

The idea behind special relativity is that information cannot be conveyed
from place to place at a velocity exceeding the speed of light.  Since
gravity betrays the presence of matter its effects cannot propogate
faster than the speed of light.  Another way to look at it that gravity
like other forces is conveyed by bosons.  Bosons, depending on if they
are massive or not travel at the below or at the speed of light
respectively.

P.S. We have a pretty nice accelerator here at LAMPF/LANL (Los Alamos
Meson Physics Facilty/Los Alamos Nat'l Labs)


[e-mail]

My opinions, mine, mine, mine!

To me, boxing is like ballet, except there's no music, no choreography,
and the dancers hit eachother.



Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!uknet!axion!spuddy!warlock
From: [e-mail] (Sean Eaton)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: RFD: Split, rename alt.alien.visitors
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Jul 92 18:33:52 GMT
Organization: Spuddy's Public Usenet Domain
Lines: 16

If a.a.v. is split up, all that will happen is that many
articles will get cross-posted to every group in the
alien sub-heirachy.  This will be especailly true for
talk.religion.newage posters who add a.a.v onto the end
of the Newsgroups: line almost by default, it seems; and
for those who insist on posting replies to private e-mail
to the net instead of mailing the user directly.
I'll wager these "off subject" and private messages
will be posted to all groups.
Think about it:  five identical copies of a message starting
"Dear Fred:" ?  I think you get my drift ...
No; a.a.v. should stay as it is for the moment.

-Sean.
[e-mail] | [e-mail]
      -Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatus nunc-
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!destroyer!ubc-cs!mprgate.mpr.ca!mprgate.mpr.ca!spani
From: [e-mail] (Leonard Spani)
Subject: Re: Why America ?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To:  alt.alien.visitors
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: MPR Teltech Ltd., Burnaby, B.C., Canada
References:  <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 21:08:48 GMT
Lines: 48

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Anthony Chaplin) writes: (I fixed the wrapping lines.  L.S.)
|>
|> I have a question for all you Phoenix Project fans out there
|>
|>     Why America, why not the old Soviet Union ?
|>
|> Think about it logically,
|>
|>     1. Russia has vast tracks of barren, unpopulated lands. Compared to
|> Russia the remote places in America really aren't that remote.
|>
|>     2. Russia's air traffic control and radar network is much less
|> comphensive than the USA's, therefore the aliens could come and go more
|> easily..
|>
|>     3. Russia, during the cold war was far behind the technology of the west
|> and so would be willing to pay a higher price for alien technology ?
|>
|>     4. People could be silenced much more easily in the old Soviet Union than
|> they could in the USA (except if your name was Silkwood !)
|>
|> Therefore if these supposed aliens had observed the earth they would have
|> found the Old Soviet Union a much more inviting place to build K-2 ??
|>
|> But let me guess they do use the Soviet Union for bases, and someone somewhere
|> (who also forgot his camera) has seen it !
|>
|> Don't get me wrong I don't have a closed mind to aliens (otherwise I wouldn't
|> subscript to this newsgroup) but massive alien bases in the USA ?
|>
|> Cheers
|>
|> Tony
|> [e-mail]


Perhaps the base is very old. K2 might have seemed like a great place 1000
years ago. Additionally, there is no reason to believe that K2 is the *only*
base on earth. There could be 100s all over the place.


Oh darn. I forgot to say "alleged bases" :^)

--
***********************************************************************
| Leonard E. Spani      |       //!?\\         | (disclaimer-p)       |
| [e-mail]  |       \\?!//         | t                    |
***********************************************************************
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!spool.mu.edu!news.cs.indiana.edu!lynx!carina.unm.edu!cary
From: [e-mail] (Ithlial the Archer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: NASA's Block of Ice!
Message-ID: <#[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Jul 92 21:27:15 GMT
Article-I.D.: lynx.#8gm_lc
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Lines: 48

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jason Haines) writes:
>Firstly, to see an object change its direction of motion so radically is
>an indication of intelligent control, especially when you see that it did so
>to avoid proximity with a high speed object, be it a meteor or a rail-gun...

When the wind blows leaves change direction fairly radically but this
hardly means they're intelligent.  When a stray asteroid gets too
close to Jupiter it gets captured,  but I would not ascribe it or Jupiter
any great intellect for the act.
>
>Secondly, the report on hard copy was pretty superficial, they had no
>scientists to provide a professional opinion of the video...
>
>Despite this, I must say that this video sequence show's the most significant
>UFO in decades.
>
PAS!

>I'd like to see more discussion of this important piece of evidence.

>Jason Haines - System Operator, MacInTouch BBS [phone]
>(TeleFinder Based)
>[e-mail]

Ok here's the scoop Jason.  Ice routinely builds up on various parts
of any space vehicle using refrigerated liquids like liquid oxygen
and hydrogen.   Some of it comes loose and follows the shuttle (or
whatever) in orbit.  This phenomenon is well documented (John Glenn's
fireflies.)  The shuttles have numerous small maneuvering jets
to maintain its attitude in orbit, these jets are often controlled by
by the computer which fires them when the shuttle drifts to far
out of the desired attitude.  Anyhow when one of these fires it
shoots out a plume of gas.  Like a leaf in the wind, ice chunks,
when hit with the exhaust of 800 lb thrust jets will change direction
rather radically.

I think that people need to develope their critical thinking skills
a bit.


Ithlial

My opinions, mine, mine, mine!

I bet the main reason the police keep people away from a plane crash
is they don't want anybody walking in and lying down in the crash
stuff, then, when some comes up, act like they just woke up and go,
"What, was THAT?!"
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!math.fu-berlin.de!news.netmbx.de!zelator!leo
From: [e-mail] (Stefan Hartmann)
Subject: Re: NASA's Block of Ice!
Organization: Puplic-Access-Xenix-System
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 20:39:47 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 66

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith) writes:

>Jason,[you write]:

>>Despite this, I must say that this video sequence show's the most
>significant
>>UFO in decades.

>>I'd like to see more discussion of this important piece of evidence.

>If you look back when this story first aired here in the U.S., you will
>find a tedious amount of discussion on the piece of ice/UFO. Also check the
>alt.skeptics newsgroup.

>I also have a question for you folks DOWN UNDER.(That's AUSTRAILIA for
>those of you who don't know where down under is.) I recall that about 3-4
>years ago that
>an egg shaped craft buzzed a family in a car on some highway down there. As
>I recall there was some material released by the craft & it was retrieved
>by the occupants of the vehicle. The material was brought in for analysis &
>that was the last I ever heard about it. I think a fishing boat offshore
>also reported
>seeing the craft about an hour later. There was quite a bit of news on the
>incident back then, but as most  news stories go , the press never really
>follows up.

>Rod


>--
>Rod Beckwith     |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
>Datacom I/S      |"The great obstacle of progress is not ignorance,
>[e-mail]|but the illusion of knowledge."


Hi,
this UFO accident what You mentioned was in Adelaine, Sothern
Australia !

I heard about it too and still have a newspaper article about it !

Well, the UFO shook a car and the family which was driving in this car
did hide near the car.
When  they came back, when the UFO left, there was some black ashes
all over the top of the car !

This ashes should be investigated by some chemical lab, but I never
heard of any results !

Did anybody hear about the results of the chemical test ?


Please send email as a reply to me, cause I am from tommorrow on
2 weeks on vaccation (holidays)!

Best regards, Stefan Hartmann.
email to: [e-mail]


--

*************************************************************
*  Stefan Hartmann       This is how to contact me:         *
*  EMAIL: [e-mail]                          *
*  Phone : ++ 49 30 344 23 66      FAX : ++ 49 30 344 92 79 *
*************************************************************
Path: news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!bgsuvax!uoft02.utoledo.edu!desire.wright.edu!cse0947
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Is Bigfoot a Visitor?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail]
Date: 23 Jul 92 13:48:24 EST
Organization: Wright State University
Lines: 3

Does anyone have an opinion as to whether the Bigfoot legend may be
connected with alien visitors?

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!odin!slugo.corp.sgi.com!rodb
From: [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith)
Subject: Re: Is Bigfoot a Visitor?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Net News)
Nntp-Posting-Host: slugo.corp.sgi.com
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
References:  <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 23:39:00 GMT
Lines: 75

Wright State University,[you write]

>Does anyone have an opinion as to whether the Bigfoot legend may be
>connected with alien visitors?

I feel that it might be possible & here is my reason why.....

About 5 years ago myself & my X were camping at Whiskeytown Lake near Mt.
Shasta
in Northern California.We arrived at around 130am so everyone in the area
was asleep. Her parents set up the tent before we arrived so we didn't have
to set it up.(Thank Goodness) Our tent was one of those Bigtop style
montsers that has a very large opening for a door. I think its dimensions
were 10'X12'.At any rate
the door of the tent was facing the water,we were approximately 10-15' away
from the water with NO OBSTRUCTIONS.There were quite a few campers in the
area . It was surprisingly warm,so much so that we decided to sleep with
the outer doors rolled back & tied with nothing but the bug net screen door
between us & the outside world.

It must have been 200am by the time we finally went to sleep.I am a very
HEAVY
sleeper.....I mean anti-aircraft fire could be going off next door & I
won't wake up,on the other hand, My X was a very light sleeper. I am very
slow person to wake up also.It's like being born every day of my life,a
struggle.

What happened next was one of a few strange things that has happened to me
in my life.I'm not sure exactly what time it was but it was pre-sunrise(you
know when the sun has not come up over the horizen but the light begins to
dominate over  the darkness.Well like I said , I never wake up but that
morning I woke out of a dead sleep & sat strait UP! Looked out of the
screen door to see to my amazement
7-10' creature standing about 5-6' away......staring at me.I could not
really see its eyes but it was apparently facing my direction. I then
rubbed my eyes violently & took a second look.....HOLY SHIT this thing is
still standing there motionless.Boy the butterflies in my stomach felt like
bats racing through my innards,man was I scared.I could see the outline of
hair all over its body,(like Chewbacca from Star Wars)except for its legs.
The legs were covered with
scales/plates or body armor type stuff,it was not light enough to get a
real
good look at it..too strange. I then after about what seemed like forever
(probably more like 30 seconds) I turned to my X and tried to wake her up
to see this thing. She would not wake up & I shook her pretty good. Finally
she came around but she was really groggy. I then turned back around to
show her this thing but it was G-O-N-E. No sound of footsteps or
anything....just gone. My X was not to happy that I woke her up & went back
to sleep. I ,on the other had was pretty shook up. I didn't like the idea
that a BIG critter could just materialize in our campsite & then just
vanish. I never got the feeling it was trying to communicate with me or
anything like that. I did not get up to go & check it out,,which was
strange cause normally I am a curious person.I finally made it back to
sleep.What a night!!

In closing I would like to say that although no one else had seen (I asked
alot of people )this thing in the area I believe it was real. The silouette
sticks in my mind very clearly to this day.Very odd experience.

BTW roughly 2 weeks later both my X & I woke up with bloody noses at the
same time.(& no we didn't bump heads in the middle of the night.)

Rod



--
Rod Beckwith     |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Datacom I/S      |"The great obstacle of progress is not ignorance,
[e-mail]|but the illusion of knowledge."
                 |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$




Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!acd4!TEFS1!wdo
From: [e-mail] (Bill Overpeck)
Subject: Re: astral travel
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 21:38:21 GMT
Lines: 26

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail]
   (Leonard Spani) writes: >
In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
   (Bill Overpeck) writes: |>

|> John, many of us here are interested in the relationship between
|> astral travel (out of body experiences) and near death experiences.
|>
|> When you are traveling in the astral plane (assuming that such
|> travel is not possible in the physical plane), is this accomplished
|> via an astral "body" or is this a purely non-physical experience.
|>
|> What is your opinion of near death experiences?  Are such events
|> merely the first occurrence (for most people) of the astral body
|> leaving the physical body?
|>
|> Bill, Scot, Keith, Aaron, George, and Lubbe

>Could you please take this discussion to email or a more appropriate
>newsgroup? (alt.oobe, alt.paranormal, talk.religion.newage, etc...)

We don't get alt.oobe at our site, Leonard, but we'll go to alt.para-
normal (despite the well known fact that most abductions are accomplished
on the astral plane).

Bill, Scot, Keith, Aaron, George, and Lubbe
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!munnari.oz.au!cs.mu.OZ.AU!munta.cs.mu.OZ.AU!curmi
From: [e-mail] (Jamie Paul CURMI)
Subject: Re: Egg shaped craft down under (3-4 years ago)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Computer Science, University of Melbourne, Australia
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 01:53:52 GMT
Lines: 63

[e-mail] (Rod Beckwith) writes:

<a little bit of stuff deleted...>

>I also have a question for you folks DOWN UNDER.(That's AUSTRAILIA for
>those of you who don't know where down under is.) I recall that about 3-4
>years ago that
>an egg shaped craft buzzed a family in a car on some highway down there. As
>I recall there was some material released by the craft & it was retrieved
>by the occupants of the vehicle. The material was brought in for analysis &
>that was the last I ever heard about it. I think a fishing boat offshore
>also reported
>seeing the craft about an hour later. There was quite a bit of news on the
>incident back then, but as most  news stories go , the press never really
>follows up.

Hi!

Yeah, I followed this story very closely at the time.  It happened just as
Hinch started his new show on 7 (Hinch at 7, on 7 ;-), and Hinch quickly
organised interviews with the entire family.

The car had some really good dents and scrapes on it I believe.
It was reported that the silvery/black material found on and in the car was
analysed...and after an awful long time the lab people said it was dust from
their brakes or something similar due to their brakes.

This whole thing seemed a little weird (not the story, but the analysis &
the way everything went really strange and quiet about this incident).  I'm
not trying to imply a coverup (ok...maybe I am   \(^_^)/  ), but this
poor family got treated like shit soon after they told their story.

A number of weeks later (possibly months even) the family were once again
interviewed (well, more like a very brief chat).  The mother said that since
the incident people had harrased her, and called her a lier, and treated
the whole family pretty badly.  She said she wished she had never told
anyone this story, and was visibly upset by the whole affair.  That was
the last I heard.

Local Oz Scientists suggested they were hit by lightning, and the usual
scientist type response to anything unusual (oh...it was ball lightning,
a weather balloon, you imagined it all...etc).  I don't know what it was..
it may well have been something quite natural....but the family said the
UFO grabbed the car, and tried to lift it off the ground, and that they
could see a glowing egg shaped thingy, bashing against the roof.


By the way, a number of ufo reports came in from Queensland last night...
a light in the sky, moving from the west (?), hovering above, then moving
back from where it came.  One person described it as a flying camp-fire
(that's a new one....hard to imagine....perhaps a Grey Boy Scout :-).
Anyone else hear about this report.

It seems a lot of UFO's are being reported down under lately.  Have the
Greys only just discovered Australia? (bit like you Americans....NO.. there
are NO kangaroos jumpin' around my back garden, or in my street!!!!  ;-)

Jamie
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------            Jamie P. Curmi  ([e-mail], [e-mail])                      Department of Computer Science,   Department of Mathematics                     The Un
iversity of Melbourne, Parkville, Victoria, Australia
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    *** Mutate NOW - avoid the rush! ***
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.unomaha.edu!cwis.unomaha.edu!jcitro3
From: [e-mail] (Joe Citro III)
Subject: Re: NASA's Block of Ice!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (UNO Network News Server)
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
References: <#[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 03:12:32 GMT
Lines: 9

I do not claim to be a physicist or even a hobbiest of quantum mechanics, but
if the first object was indeed ice that moved due to the shuttle's engines
(or whatever) then why did the first object that clearly seems to be furtherter
away move first? Would not the initial force applied by the shuttle act on
the nearer object first (supposed fired shot)?  Accordingly, the UFO would not
have moved until the shot (or ice) arrived. Any explanations?

                                        Joseph A. Citro III

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.unomaha.edu!cwis.unomaha.edu!jcitro3
From: [e-mail] (Joe Citro III)
Subject: Re: Why America ?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (UNO Network News Server)
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 03:16:58 GMT
Lines: 52

[e-mail]  writes:
> In article [e-mail], [e-mail] (Anthony Chaplin) writes:
> >
> >I have a question for all you Phoenix Project fans out there
> >
> >    Why America, why not the old Soviet Union ?
> >
> >Think about it logically,
> >
> >    1. Russia has vast tracks of barren, unpopulated lands. Compared to Russia the remote places in America really aren't that remote.
> >
> >    2. Russia's air traffic control and radar network is much less comphensive than the USA's, therefore the aliens could come and go more easily..
> >
> >    3. Russia, during the cold war was far behind the technology of the west and so would be willing to pay a higher price for alien technology ?
> >
> >    4. People could be silenced much more easily in the old Soviet Union than they could in the USA (except if your name was Silkwood !)
> >
> >Therefore if these supposed aliens had observed the earth they would have found the Old Soviet Union a much more inviting place to build K-2 ??
> >
> >But let me guess they do use the Soviet Union for bases, and someone somewhere (who also forgot his camera) has seen it !
> >
> >Don't get me wrong I don't have a closed mind to aliens (otherwise I wouldn't subscript to this newsgroup) but massive alien bases in the USA ?
> >
> >Cheers
> >
> >Tony
> >[e-mail]
>
> Good point.  In fact, why not Antartica, northern Canada, or the middle of an
> ocean?  The only reasons I can think of would be:
>
>   a.  They are working with Americans which require access to the base.
>   b.  Their work is in that area (outside the base, assuming they must leave
>       the base to accomplish some part of their work), and fuel requirements for
>       transits to/from the more remote locations is prohibitive.
>   c.  Their work is in that area, and transits to/from more remote locations
>       would increase the probability of detection.
>
> It really comes down to this - why do they have a base on Earth at all?
>
> Of course, the possible existence of an alien base in the U.S. does not preclude
> the possibility of bases existing in these other, more remote, places either.
>
> ---
> sincerely,
> Alan Jones  /  Texas Instruments, Dallas, TX  /  email=[e-mail]
>
Why not use the moon as a base? (of course maybe they are).  The close
proximity to Earth and the seclusion would make it ideal!

                                        Joseph A. Citro III

Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.config:8991 alt.alien.visitors:7519
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!sun-barr!news2me.ebay.sun.com!jethro.Corp.Sun.COM!starflight!jdr
From: [e-mail] (Jon Roland)
Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: RFD: Split, rename alt.alien.visitors
Followup-To: alt.config
Date: 24 Jul 1992 03:30:03 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Lines: 56
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
NNTP-Posting-Host: starflight.corp.sun.com

A number of netters have suggested that we should have a common
2nd-level name, and I agree. But so far none of them has come up with a
good one. Let's try "strange", so that we have the newsgroup
alt.alien.visitors split and renamed as follows:

alt.strange.ufos    - aerial sightings, close encounters of 1st and 2nd kind
alt.strange.aliens    - close encounters of 3rd and 4th kinds, abductions
alt.strange.circles    - crop circles, unidentified ground markings
alt.strange.mutilations    - strange mutilations
alt.strange.coverups    - official coverups, disinformation, harrassments

All these work except the last. We could try "anomaly":

alt.anomaly.ufos    - aerial sightings, close encounters of 1st and 2nd kind
alt.anomaly.aliens    - close encounters of 3rd and 4th kinds, abductions
alt.anomaly.circles    - crop circles, unidentified ground markings
alt.anomaly.mutilations    - strange mutilations
alt.anomaly.coverups    - official coverups, disinformation, harrassments

Well, better, but still too broad. What all these groups have in common is
their suspected link to aliens. We could try making the second name "alien"
and use a different name for the second group:

alt.alien.ufos        - aerial sightings, close encounters of 1st and 2nd kind
alt.alien.meetings    - close encounters of 3rd and 4th kinds, abductions
alt.alien.circles    - crop circles, unidentified ground markings
alt.alien.mutilations    - strange mutilations
alt.alien.coverups    - official coverups, disinformation, harrassments

Now there is a problem with the first, third and fourth groups -- the
presumed link to "aliens" is too strong while other explanations remain
open.

That leaves one other possibility, using two 2nd-level names:

alt.alien.coverups    - official coverups, disinformation, harrassments
alt.alien.meetings    - close encounters of 3rd and 4th kinds, abductions
alt.anomaly.circles    - crop circles, unidentified ground markings
alt.anomaly.mutilations    - strange mutilations
alt.anomaly.ufos    - aerial sightings, close encounters of 1st and 2nd kind

This last looks to me like the best solution so far. Perhaps others have some
better ideas. Two 2nd-level names convey the degree of certainty of the
alien connection to the events discussed.

Some of the postings now made to alt.paranormal might also belong to new
groups under alt.anomaly if they concern specific events that suggest
something alien, as distinct from something mystical or supernatural.

---

[e-mail], [e-mail]
Jon Roland
Starflight Corporation, 1755 E Bayshore Rd #9A,
Redwood City, CA 94063-4142, 415/361-8141

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!att!att!cbnewsd!press2
From: [e-mail] (barry.o.olson)
Subject: Re: NASA's Block of Ice!
Organization: AT&T
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 03:34:27 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Summary: ufo vs ice chunk - flash, it moved
References: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 17

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jason Haines) writes:
> I have just viewed the footage taken from the Space Shuttle, as shown on
> Hard Copy (the Australian version), and I must say it is very interesting.
>
I finally got to view this segment on Larry King(and taped it).

It looked convincing if one could only ignore that Flash just
prior to the chunk changing direction. The flash had to cause the
direction change(or quite a coincidence of timing).
The other streak one views after the [ice] moves away seems unrelated
as it's tragectory is farther left of the [ice]and could be anything.

Anyway, the large flash on the left, and the coincidental zip of
the object away from the flash leaves me with ice in my mouth:-)
I since erased the tape to move onto other audio-visual pastimes.

barry--
Xref: news.uiowa.edu talk.religion.newage:10925 alt.alien.visitors:7521 sci.skeptic:27840
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: The Prime Directive
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 22:36:43 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Sorry everybody I don't have any time to read or post anything except
this posting today. Catch you people later if possible.
John Winston.
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!att!cbnewse!cbnewsd!press2
From: [e-mail] (barry.o.olson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: WIR's [Was MIB]
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Jul 92 02:35:17 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: AT&T
Lines: 15

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Geof Evans) writes:
> [e-mail] writes:
>
> >In article <[e-mail]>
> >[e-mail] (Ray Rosch) writes:
> >I'd suggest you watch the movie: The Thin Blue Line, wherein we learn
> >that the famous LIR was actually a LIO (Lady in Orange).
>
> <<<* Hey I really dig the sense of humour that this group seems to be developing     "No maam...we're musicians"
>      UFO's are *serious* business but you gotta laugh...least I do.
>
Yes, I agree. I like to have fun sometimes-please no offense to the
really,really serious buffs out there:-)

barry--
Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7523 sci.skeptic:27841
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From: [e-mail] (barry.o.olson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: astral travel
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Jul 92 04:01:44 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.aliens.visitors
Organization: AT&T
Lines: 11

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> Dear Len. If you would learn to use these gifts such as telepathy
> astral projection and a few others then no one would be able to lie
> to you.  Everyone would be an open book for you to read.
> John Winston.

You could work in the president's cabinet to weed out liars, cheats,
frauds, and weazels. You could save this country!
You could work for Judges, Lawyers, why even the RTC!

Aw who am i kidding, John would be God.
Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7524 sci.skeptic:27844
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU!CARL
From: [e-mail] (Carl J Lydick)
Subject: Re: Elapsed Time near c (was Re: Q&A on Extraterr
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
References: <[e-mail]>  <[e-mail]>  <[e-mail]>  <[e-mail]>  <[e-mail]>,<[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 07:19:10 GMT
Lines: 22

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Thad P Floryan) writes:
>It seems to me that a "mass detector" would be required.  Such a detector
>"should" be able to sense matter.  Whether one would have the compute power
>to resolve individual objects based on the massive (no pun! :-) sensory input
>is another matter!
>
>Are not the effects of mass (and therefore gravity) instantaneously permeated
>thoughout the (known) universe?  Or hasn't this issue been resolved?  I'm not
>a physicist, so consider this as lay speculation/conjecture; I visit SLAC and
>other such places, and I'm in awe of the experiments they conduct.

Current theory says that gravitational waves do NOT travel instantaneously.
If they DID travel instantaneously, there'd be no possibility of LIGO (Laser
Interferometry Gravitational Observatory?) working.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [e-mail] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!usc!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.unomaha.edu!cwis.unomaha.edu!jcitro3
From: [e-mail] (Joe Citro III)
Subject: Stealth Manuscript
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (UNO Network News Server)
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 08:34:33 GMT
Lines: 25

Someone posted an article in the last few weeks (in alt.alien.visitors)
about a supposed politician whom had claimed to have been abducted.  No
names were given as to which politician this might be.  However last night
(23 July) I found the following article in TIME magazines July 27, 1992
issue.

        "Here Comes The Stealth Manuscript"

"Booksellers are grinding their teeth over several big Ross Perot books
that have been cancelled on the eve of publication.  BUT SOMETHING BIGGER
MAY BE COMING SOON (my emphasis).  Putnam is preparing to ship more than
100,000 copies of a supersecret book in late August.  The publisher is
keeping both the subject and the author completely confidential.  According
to buyers for the major chains, Putnam executives have been whispering that
it is a biography of a major Washington official that contains information
so explosive it could cause his or her resignation.  This has prompted a
guessing game within the industry, but Putnam executives say only
'No Comment.'"

Anticipation will antagonize me until late August!  I certainly hope that
this will not turn out to be hoax.

                                                Joseph A. Citro III
                                                [e-mail]

Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7526 sci.skeptic:27848
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!thad
From: [e-mail] (Thad P Floryan)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Erich Von Daniken
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 02:17:24 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 45

In article <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] (Robert McGrath) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Thad P Floryan) writes
 in part:
>|>[...]
>|> Some actual (and identifiable) dinosaur footprints were present in the rock
,
>|> along with what appeared to me (and these were the ones labelled as "unknow
n")
>|> to be the tracks of a military jeep.  Two parallel tracks with about a 5 fo
ot
>|> separation (for some 15 feet, in the slab fragment) which resembled today's
>|> high-tech all-weather tire-treads.  Tracks which were made millions of year
s
>|> ago. Incredible; I'll never forget that sight; and when I uttered that thou
ght
>|> out loud (I was only about 8 years old then), everyone turned around and
>|> looked at me strangely, yet no-one made any comments or smiled.  [ See belo
w ]
>
>Incredible is the word.  This would be a lot harder to understand if I
>hadn't read the classic science fiction story of that time from which
>this little joke was taken.

If it's a joke, then it's one on me [for I was there].

However, I'm not going to "defend" my remembrance since nearly 40 years have
elapsed (this was about 1952-1953; we lived in the area from 1951 to 1956).

And at that (original) time I was in the company of my Dad who desired to
tour the entire Museum in one day (he was like that; and the museum occupied
an entire city block [it was HUGE]).

Next time I'm in DC, I'll make a point to re-visit that Smithsonian exhibit
and attempt to collect more info; this cannot be until at least mid-1993.

One correspondent commented that perhaps the tracks were those of amphibians'
flippers.  'Spossible (and more plausible!)  All I stated was that the tracks
bore a resemblance to tire tracks, NOT that they were tire tracks!  :-)

As for science-fiction, could not the author have seen the same exhibit which
stimulated HIS story?  Have you a reference [title, author, etc.]?

Thad Floryan [ [e-mail] ]
Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7527 sci.skeptic:27849
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!thad
From: [e-mail] (Thad P Floryan)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Elapsed Time near c (was Re: Q&A on Extraterr
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 02:43:20 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 26

In article <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] (Ithlial the Archer) writes:

| [...]
| The idea behind special relativity is that information cannot be conveyed
| from place to place at a velocity exceeding the speed of light.  Since
| gravity betrays the presence of matter its effects cannot propogate
| faster than the speed of light.  Another way to look at it that gravity
| like other forces is conveyed by bosons.  Bosons, depending on if they
| are massive or not travel at the below or at the speed of light
| respectively.
| [...]

Nicely explained; thanks!  (Ever think of becoming a science writer? :-)

Now we have the problem of the Black Hole (I need to get a copy of Hawkings'
book(s)): given that a BH is so massive it prevents photon emission, can one
infer that gravity "outreaches" light?  I thought photons were massless, so
what is the attractor?  Must the answer await the formulation of a Unified
Field Theory?

Could a BH be detectable by OTHER than observed perturbations of other masses?
In other words: does a BH radiate "anything", or is it the ABSENCE of radiation
and other energies that defines an instance or the presence of a BH?

Thad Floryan [ [e-mail] ]
Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7528 alt.sci.physics.new-theories:1989
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!uknet!siesoft!imw
From: [e-mail] (Ian Wild)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Subject: Re: Tachyons (was Re: Elapsed Time near c (was Re: Q&A on Extraterr
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Jul 92 15:12:47 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Organization: Siemens Nixdorf Information Systems Ltd.
Lines: 19
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

tordm@vana (Tord Malmgren) writes:
: In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Geert Spiering) writes:
:
: [...]
: >However there may be particles that ALWAYS travell at velocities > c.
: >The catch is, that these particles would have to have imaginary masses.
: [...]
:
:  as far as I understood Einstein's relativity it was only valid with speeds
: less than "c", and what happened with speeds larger than "c" it could not
: predict, so as far as I understand these Tachyons need not possess imaginary
: mass at all; maybe they could be real, but how they got into that state no
: theory tells us...
:

Wouldn't tachyons have to travel at >c relative to *everything*?  Including
themselves?

imw
Xref: news.uiowa.edu talk.religion.newage:10931 alt.alien.visitors:7529 sci.skeptic:27852
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: The Prime Directive
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 06:18:19 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 9

Dear Fellow Earthlings: Here it is Friday morning 0607 and things look
pretty good.  If  it's God's will and if the creek doesn't rise
I hope to go down to Southern Calif. and go on a tour of  the ruins
of a 30,000 year old city.
In case we ever accomplish something with all of this astral projection
project and other things be sure and don't think it's something that
I did or figured out myself.  It's like the western song, I've got
friends in low places, except just the opposite.
John Winston.
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ley Linesj
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 06:21:45 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Everybody:
I'll be going on a tour of an acient city this Sunday.
John Winston.
Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7531 sci.skeptic:27853
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: astral travel
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 06:25:46 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

Dear Friend and the rest of you people:
I don't have time right now to talk. I hope to go on a tour of an
ancient city this Sunday, see ya later.
John Winston.
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ***Good_Luck_for_Your_Astral_Convey***
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 06:28:09 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear John H.
Haven't any time but will comment on this later.
John Winston.
Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7533 alt.sci.physics.new-theories:1990
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!umeecs!umn.edu!lynx!carina.unm.edu!cary
From: [e-mail] (Ithlial the Archer)
Subject: Re: Supraluminal v (was Re: Elapsed Time near c )
Message-ID: <9thm![e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 13:52:32 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <v1gm![e-mail]>
Lines: 18

In article <v1gm![e-mail]> [e-mail] (Ithlial the Archer) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Geert Spiering) writes:
>>I hope this adds to the discussion, but since everyone keeps repeating
>>the statement that nothing can travel faster than light, i would like
>
>Hmm, what velocity do photons travel at?  I think you mean to say
>that nothing with a rest mass can travel at c.

Opps, scratch that statement I apparently can't read, and also to save
everyone else the bother I'll go ahead and flame myself:
You stupid, blithering, idiot; CAN'T YOU EVEN READ YOUR NATIVE TONGUE!

Ithlial





Path: news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rphroy!caen!umeecs!umn.edu!news.cs.indiana.edu!lynx!carina.unm.edu!cary
From: [e-mail] (Ithlial the Archer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: zeta reticuli?
Message-ID: <4whmq#[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Jul 92 15:03:33 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <nxgmw=[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Lines: 41

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <nxgmw=[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Ithlial the Archer) writes:
>> Another thing to think about is if the star had been a supernovae
>> candidate it would have been a red giant.  Which means that (a) it
>> would have been around apparent mag -6 or so and (b) it would have
>> engulfed or nearly engulfed any planets with orbtial radii similar
>> to the earth's (ie the range of orbital radii within which it is
>> thought necessary for a planet to have to be habital.)
>>
>> Ithlial
>
>Just to be the >:-)> advocate: would not the "comfort zone" for planetary
>radii be moved outward for a star massive enough to become a red giant?
>Not that the fact that the star turned into a red giant would not destroy
>the environment of any habitable planet no matter what its orbital radii
>was (or that such a star would not stick around long enough to evovle
>higher life.)

You're entirely correct in saying that the comfort zone (CZ) will move
out.  Unfortunately you guess that the red giant phase is too short
is also true.  Usually the phase lasts a few 100 million years, in addition
the luminosity is fluctating which will cause the CZ to move (although
not as much as the intially change to red giant caused it too move.
Note that lower forms of life like algaes and the like took a billion
years to evolve.
>
>Thomas Freebairn  * I wish I had an employer
>          * whose opinions mine were not.

Ithlial


My opinions, mine, mine, mine!

I bet the main reason the police keep people away from a plane crash
is they don't want anybody walking in and lying down in the crash
stuff, then, when some comes up, act like they just woke up and go,
"What, was THAT?!"



Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!uknet!warwick!mrccrc!mrccrc!sgamble
From: [e-mail] (Steve Gamble x3293)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: REQUEST: Roswell information; and how to get more
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Jul 92 15:18:59 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Steve Gamble x3293)
Organization: MRC Human Genome Mapping Project Resource Centre, Harrow, UK
Lines: 25
Nntp-Posting-Host: germanium

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> Dear Steve:
> It's good to hear that Stanton Friedman's book Crash at Corona is out.
> I once mentioned to Stan that I didn't believe exactly like he did and
> he would probubly call me and my friends a bunch of kooks. He mentioned
> that he had work with some pretty weird people before.  Anyway he
> sticks with what he is doing and came out with the book.
> John Winston.

No you have it wrong John, Stan would not call you a kook, he prefers
to call people who are not true believers as 'noisy negativists'. :) :)

I think that having a second team in the form of Kevin Randle and Don Schmit
actively investigating the Roswell case is a good thing. They challenge
a number of statements Stan makes and he returns the compliment. At times
it looks as if World War Three is going on between them, but I guess it
makes them all check what they say.

Steve.

--
(Disclaimer: These are not my employer's opinions, they may not even be mine!)
Steve Gamble, Computing Services, Clinical Research Centre and Human Genome
Mapping Project Resource Centre, Watford Road, Harrow, Middlesex, HA1 3UJ, UK.
Phone: [phone]  JANET: [e-mail] INTERNET: [e-mail]
Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7536 sci.skeptic:27857
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From: [e-mail] (Ithlial the Archer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Elapsed Time near c (was Re: Q&A on Extraterr
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Jul 92 16:08:46 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Lines: 79

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Thad P Floryan) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>
>[e-mail] (Ithlial the Archer) writes:
>
>| [...]
>| The idea behind special relativity is that information cannot be conveyed
>| from place to place at a velocity exceeding the speed of light.  Since
>| gravity betrays the presence of matter its effects cannot propogate
>| faster than the speed of light.  Another way to look at it that gravity
>| like other forces is conveyed by bosons.  Bosons, depending on if they
>| are massive or not travel at the below or at the speed of light
>| respectively.
>| [...]
>
>Nicely explained; thanks!  (Ever think of becoming a science writer? :-)
>
>Now we have the problem of the Black Hole (I need to get a copy of Hawkings'
>book(s)): given that a BH is so massive it prevents photon emission, can one
>infer that gravity "outreaches" light?  I thought photons were massless, so
>what is the attractor?  Must the answer await the formulation of a Unified
>Field Theory?
>
The reason that information about mass (and charge and angular momnetum) is
conveyed to the universe out side the evet horizon is that the gravitons
that mediate the gravitational field and the photons that mediate the
electromagnetic field are what we call 'vitrual' particles.  The aren't
real in anyway that we know it, their existence is implied only by the
force they mediate.  Also we do know the state of the star before it
becomes a black hole.  So with a couple of conservation laws and some
arithmetic we know what goes into the singularity, so we're not learning
anything that we didn't know about before.  The reason real photons
can't get out can be thought of a couple of ways.  One can assign the photon
a mass based on the classical formula p = mv, where v=c for a photon.
The momentum of a photon comes from the formual for total energy of
a particle with no mass, E = pc.  Beleive it or not this works, even
though we're mixing relativistic and classical formulae.  (In a side
light the formula for calculating the event horizon can be done classically
and it works out correctly too)  So you use the mass that to calculate
the force, and newton's F = dp/dt and you see that you need any infinte
amount of momentum (ie energy) to escape from the event horizon and
probably an imaginary amount to get out from within the EH.

>Could a BH be detectable by OTHER than observed perturbations of other masses?
>In other words: does a BH radiate "anything", or is it the ABSENCE of
>radiation
>and other energies that defines an instance or the presence of a BH?
>
The way that astronomers detect what are probably black holes is
fairly straight forward.  We observe a binary system in which on of the
companions is emitting high energy radiation, like x-rays and gamma rays.
In the type of binary system these obervations are made one companion is
large, some type of giant star, red giants work best, while the other
is compact and pulls material off the larger star.  Red giants work
best since they are largest and their outermost material is only loosely
bound.  Since it is emitting this high energy radiation, we know that the
material must be very hot (ie posses alot of kinetic energy).  The easiest
way to get kinetic energy is to fall down, stairs, cliffs or the potential
well of a massive object.  So since the marterial is so energetic it must
have fallen a long way, threfore the object that the stuff is falling onto
is pretty small, ie smaller than a small star, even a white dwarf.
Another way to put upper limits on size is by measuring the time scale
over which the luminousity varies.  The time scale time the speed of
light is an absolute upperbound on the size of the region that's
doing the varying.  Anyhow if its smaller than a white dwarf it's a
neutron star or a blackhole, which depends on the mass.  Now since the
stars are rotating about eachother at a rate we can measure we can
with the help of the law of gravitation determine their masses.  If
the mass is too high for the neutron degeneracy to keep it from collapsing
then it's a blackhole, otherwise it's a neutron star.



Ithlial


My opinions, mine, mine, mine!

To me, boxing is like ballet, except there's no music, no choreography,
and the dancers hit eachother.
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!darwin.sura.net!jvnc.net!rutgers!news.cs.indiana.edu!lynx!carina.unm.edu!cary
From: [e-mail] (Ithlial the Archer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: NASA's Block of Ice!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Jul 92 16:45:03 GMT
References: <#[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Lines: 22

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Joe Citro III) writes:
>I do not claim to be a physicist or even a hobbiest of quantum mechanics, but
>if the first object was indeed ice that moved due to the shuttle's engines
>(or whatever) then why did the first object that clearly seems to be
>furtherter
>away move first? Would not the initial force applied by the shuttle act on
>the nearer object first (supposed fired shot)?  Accordingly, the UFO would not
>have moved until the shot (or ice) arrived. Any explanations?
>
>                                        Joseph A. Citro III
>
How can you say that any of the objects is clearly further away than any
of the others?  There aren't a lot of visual clues in the video that allow
you to determine the distances of the ice flecks.

Ithlial


My opinions, mine, mine, mine!

To me, boxing is like ballet, except there's no music, no choreography,
and the dancers hit eachother.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: <None>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 1
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
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Date: 24 Jul 92 20:15:06 EET
Lines: 1


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From: [e-mail] (Aero Student Account)
Subject: Re: ***Good_Luck_for_Your_Astral_Convey***
Message-ID: <aero.711995750@neptune>
Sender: [e-mail] (Nets)
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, USA
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 16:35:50 GMT
Lines: 16

[e-mail] writes:

>Dear John H.
>Haven't any time but will comment on this later.
>John Winston.

Would someone please teach Mr. Winston about the subtleties and
nuances which distinguish "followup" from "reply?"

--------
Jonathan A. Bishop
[e-mail]

"Yippee!  That may have been a small one for Neil,
 but it was a big one for me."
                            --Pete Conrad
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Aero Student Account)
Subject: Re: Ley Linesj
Message-ID: <aero.711995673@neptune>
Sender: [e-mail] (Nets)
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, USA
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>   <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 16:34:33 GMT
Lines: 17

[e-mail] writes:

>Dear Everybody:
>I'll be going on a tour of an acient city this Sunday.
>John Winston.

And I'll be going camping this weekend.

(Just thought Everybody might like to know that).

--------
Jonathan A. Bishop
[e-mail]

"Yippee!  That may have been a small one for Neil,
 but it was a big one for me."
                            --Pete Conrad
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!news.funet.fi!polaris!sara.cc.utu.fi!shanwang
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: NASA's Block of Ice!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 29
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Nntp-Posting-Host: sara.cc.utu.fi
Organization: University of Turku, Finland
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Date: 24 Jul 92 20:24:47 EET
Lines: 29

>>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (barry.o.olson) writes:
>> In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Jason Haines) writes:
>> I have just viewed the footage taken from the Space Shuttle, as shown on
>> Hard Copy (the Australian version), and I must say it is very interesting.
>>
>> I finally got to view this segment on Larry King(and taped it).
>>
>> It looked convincing if one could only ignore that Flash just
>> prior to the chunk changing direction. The flash had to cause the
>> direction change(or quite a coincidence of timing).
>> The other streak one views after the [ice] moves away seems unrelated
>> as it's tragectory is farther left of the [ice]and could be anything.
>>
>> Anyway, the large flash on the left, and the coincidental zip of
>> the object away from the flash leaves me with ice in my mouth:-)
>> I since erased the tape to move onto other audio-visual pastimes.
>>
>>
      Hi, Alexi,

    Thanks for your tape. That realy works.
    Good luck for your experiment. Have a enjoyable tour.
    By the way, take care of those bad potatos you deal with some days.

    I am busy now to write too many papers to my prof. So let me see,
    what will happen:)

    J.Hillman

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: zeta reticuli?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 17
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: indyvax.iupui.edu
Organization: Indiana University
References: <[e-mail]> <nxgmw=[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <4whmq#[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Jul 92 12:45:06 -0500

In article <4whmq#[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Ithlial the Archer) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>In article <nxgmw=[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Ithlial the Archer) writes:

>
> You're entirely correct in saying that the comfort zone (CZ) will move
> out.  Unfortunately you guess that the red giant phase is too short
> is also true.  Usually the phase lasts a few 100 million years, in addition
> the luminosity is fluctating which will cause the CZ to move (although
> not as much as the intially change to red giant caused it to move.
> Ithlial

Interesting point (that I had never thought about.)  I was talking about
main sequence lifetime for a star with enough mass to become red _super_
giant.  Are not these the ones that reach such proportions?
Thomas Freebairn

Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7543 sci.skeptic:27861
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
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From: [e-mail] (Robert McGrath)
Subject: Re: Erich Von Daniken
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Database (admin-Mike Schwager))
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 17:58:45 GMT
Lines: 25

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Thad P Floryan) writes in part:
|> If it's a joke, then it's one on me [for I was there].
That's what I meant.

I tend to suspect you could have seen a plaster cast of footprints
with jeep tracks added.  Easy enough to do.  Pretty funny, too.

|> As for science-fiction, could not the author have seen the same exhibit which
|> stimulated HIS story?  Have you a reference [title, author, etc.]?
Yes, the causation could very well be the other way.

If I had the reference I would have posted it. :-)  I'm still searching.
I think this was in a collection of short stories by Arthur C. Clarke.
Anyone want to help out here?

|> One correspondent commented that perhaps the tracks were those of amphibians'
|> flippers.  'Spossible (and more plausible!)  All I stated was that the tracks
|> bore a resemblance to tire tracks, NOT that they were tire tracks!  :-)
Ahem.  Actually, you were pretty darn certain that they were tire tracks
in your previous posting.

--
  Robert E. McGrath
  Urbana Illinois
  [e-mail]
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!udel!gvls1!tredysvr!cellar!revpk
From: [e-mail] (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Wanted: Info On Mib
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Jul 92 16:55:52 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The Cellar BBS)
Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system
Lines: 19

[e-mail] writes:

> Dear People: If a person believes the Condon Report I truely feel
> sorry for that person. We spent about 55,000 dollars on that report
> to get information on the space people when we have recovered live
> space people  (the good type) from crashes. We subjest them to
> questioning then when they don't answer us to give us their advanced
> technology we put them in liquid nitrogen for extended periods of
> time. Every so often we unthaw them and ask them some more questions.
> If they don't give us the information we want then we refreeze them
> again. It reminds me of the old song God's Going To Get You For That.

        Gee, and they say FUR kills.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian "Rev. P-K" Siano                                  [e-mail]
"Best Reason Not to Vote for Perot-- If he wins, it might encourage Bill
Gates to run."
Xref: news.uiowa.edu talk.religion.newage:10937 alt.alien.visitors:7545 sci.skeptic:27865
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!sun-barr!news2me.ebay.sun.com!exodus.Eng.Sun.COM!appserv.Eng.Sun.COM!sun!amdcad!sono!lawson
From: [e-mail] (Drew Lawson)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: The Prime Directive
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Jul 92 16:52:40 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Drew Lawson)
Organization: ACUSON, Mountain View, CA
Lines: 10

In article <[e-mail]> mdl@phelixsalt (Michael Lynch) writes:

>I had a dream that grey empaths dressed in black had taken over New
>Jersey.....

But would anybody notice?

--
Drew Lawson                      If you're not part of the solution,
[e-mail]                you're part of the precipitate
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Tim Hall)
Subject: Re: Stealth Manuscript
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of Fri, 24 Jul 1992 08:34:33 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Mr USENET himself)
Nntp-Posting-Host: agni.std.com
Organization: Software Tool & Die
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 18:50:33 GMT
Lines: 35

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Joe Citro III) writes:

   Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
   Path: world!uunet!usc!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.unomaha.edu!cwis.unomaha.edu!jcitro3
   From: [e-mail] (Joe Citro III)
   Sender: [e-mail] (UNO Network News Server)
   Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
   Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 08:34:33 GMT
   Lines: 25

    .
    .
    .
   MAY BE COMING SOON (my emphasis).  Putnam is preparing to ship more than
   100,000 copies of a supersecret book in late August.  The publisher is
   keeping both the subject and the author completely confidential.  According
   to buyers for the major chains, Putnam executives have been whispering that
   it is a biography of a major Washington official that contains information
   so explosive it could cause his or her resignation.  This has prompted a
   guessing game within the industry, but Putnam executives say only
   'No Comment.'"

                           Joseph A. Citro III
                           [e-mail]

The Boston Globe reported that a scathing book on Ted Kennedy is supposed
to come out soon.  It is written by a former (disgruntled?) aide and is
supposed to contain lots of dirt.  Sounds like what you mention above.
--

-Tim

I'm not trying to kill myself.  I just don't want to feel.
(unknown)

Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7547 sci.skeptic:27875
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!caen!ldoering
From: [e-mail] (Laurence Doering)
Subject: Time's Arrow (fossil tire tracks)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 15:37:18 EDT
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Nntp-Posting-Host: joe.engin.umich.edu
Lines: 23

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Thad P Floryan) writes in part:
>|> If it's a joke, then it's one on me [for I was there].
>That's what I meant.
>
>I tend to suspect you could have seen a plaster cast of footprints
>with jeep tracks added.  Easy enough to do.  Pretty funny, too.
>
>|> As for science-fiction, could not the author have seen the same exhibit which
>|> stimulated HIS story?  Have you a reference [title, author, etc.]?
>Yes, the causation could very well be the other way.
>
>If I had the reference I would have posted it. :-)  I'm still searching.
>I think this was in a collection of short stories by Arthur C. Clarke.
>Anyone want to help out here?

I don't remember the name of the short story collection, but the story is
called "Time's Arrow", and is by Arthur C. Clarke.  (Paleontologists travel
back in time with jeep & equipment, never return; colleagues later discover
fossil jeep tire tracks overlaid with carnivorous dinosaur footprints,
with increasing spacing, as if the dinosaur was CHASING SOMETHING...)

ljd
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!usc!wupost!gumby!destroyer!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.unomaha.edu!cwis.unomaha.edu!jcitro3
From: [e-mail] (Joe Citro III)
Subject: Re: NASA's Block of Ice!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (UNO Network News Server)
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 20:19:47 GMT
Lines: 37

[e-mail]  writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Joe Citro III) writes:
> >I do not claim to be a physicist or even a hobbiest of quantum mechanics, but
> >if the first object was indeed ice that moved due to the shuttle's engines
> >(or whatever) then why did the first object that clearly seems to be
> >furtherter
> >away move first? Would not the initial force applied by the shuttle act on
> >the nearer object first (supposed fired shot)?  Accordingly, the UFO would not
> >have moved until the shot (or ice) arrived. Any explanations?
> >
> >                                        Joseph A. Citro III
> >
> How can you say that any of the objects is clearly further away than any
> of the others?  There aren't a lot of visual clues in the video that allow
> you to determine the distances of the ice flecks.
>
> Ithlial
>
>
> My opinions, mine, mine, mine!
>
> To me, boxing is like ballet, except there's no music, no choreography,
> and the dancers hit eachother.

There is a problem determining depth and distance with the type of camera
used to tape the possible UFO event by the shuttle.  However, it is not
impossible to do so.  The camera used operates very similar to night
vision devices used in the military.  I have had extensive use of this
type of equipment. Particularly, what are called PV-S5 night vision goggles,
and the PV-S2 starlight scope.  If it were impossible to determine depth
and distance with these devices it would not be possible to use them for
hitting enemy targets.  Yes, it is my opinion that the object that moved
first was further away.  But, my opinon is based on experience with
similar equipment.

                                        Joseph A. Citro III

Xref: news.uiowa.edu talk.religion.newage:10938 alt.alien.visitors:7550 sci.skeptic:27877
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: The Prime Directive
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Jul 92 14:44:55 GMT
References: <[e-mail]><[e-mail]><[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Merrimack College, No. Andover, MA, USA
Lines: 26

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> Dear Everybody: I don't have time to say much. A person by the name
> of Kumar in Germany has been sending me E-mail and my E-mail has not
> been getting back to him so I sent him a telepathic message. He wrote
> me yesterday that he was aware of me sending him a telepathic message
> and that I had woken him up and had also appeared in his dreams. This
> has happened to me and other people before. On sunday and monday nights
> I did a little warm up astral projection.  Remember tonight at 1100 PM
> it the time we'll do the experiment.
> John Winston.

   Now this is good...From now on when I call someone and the line is busy...
I'll send them a telepathic message.  Why do I get the feeling you believe
 you've  talked to Elvis in your local K-mart?

Now kids...Pay attention, By smoking some weird foreign substance, you too
can post weird messages.

Alex
*****************************************************************************
Stand your ground, Don't fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have
a war...let it begin here!
                        Captain Parker
                        April 19, 1775
                        Battle of Lexington
*****************************************************************************
Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7551 sci.skeptic:27887
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!stanford.edu!apple!news.oc.com!convex!swarren
From: [e-mail] (Steve Warren)
Subject: Re: Elapsed Time near c (was Re: Q&A on Extraterr
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (news access account)
Nntp-Posting-Host: magnum.convex.com
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 22:07:47 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.
Lines: 51

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Thad P Floryan) writes:
>Now we have the problem of the Black Hole (I need to get a copy of Hawkings'
>book(s)): given that a BH is so massive it prevents photon emission, can one
>infer that gravity "outreaches" light?  I thought photons were massless, so
>what is the attractor?  Must the answer await the formulation of a Unified
>Field Theory?

Well, this is a lot more complex than special relativity; the effects of
black holes are described by the general theory of relativity.  Basically
general relativity says that a gravitational field is equivalent to a
reference frame that is accelerating at a rate equal to the gravitational
acceleration of the field.  Obviously this changes depending on where you
are in the field, but you get the idea.

Light cannot escape from a black hole because it is infinitely red-shifted
as it journeys through the gravitational field, to the point that it no
longer contains any energy.

>Could a BH be detectable by OTHER than observed perturbations of other masses?
>In other words: does a BH radiate "anything",or is it the ABSENCE of radiation
>and other energies that defines an instance or the presence of a BH?

There will probably be some innaccuracies here, so be patient, but here
is the mechanism as I understand it:

Apparently the background quantum fluctuations that constantly percolate
throughout the universe provide a mechanism for radiation to be emitted
from a black hole.  Quantum theory provides for a finite non-zero proba-
bility that at any point in space and time a particle and its anti-
particle may spontanously come into existance out of "nothing".  Under
normal circumstances these "virtual particles" instantly annihilate one
another.  The energy from the annihilation never really existed; the
virtual particles came into existance owing the universe for their mass,
so when they annihilate each other they simply disappear without emitting
any photons or other particles.

At the edge of a black hole, on the boundary between escape and consumption,
these virtual particles form and are ripped apart by tidal forces before
they can recombine.  The black hole consumes one of them, and the other
escapes.  The mass for the particle that escapes comes out of the mass of
the black hole.  This is a form of quantum tunneling similar to what happens
electrically in a tunnel diode.  Only this time it is a gravity well that
the particle "tunnels" out of, rather than an electrical potential well.

The result is that black holes gradually evaporate over time.  The rate
is very slow, however.
--
            _.
--Steve   ._||__    Welcome to the World's First GaAs Supercomputer
  Warren   v\ *|    -----------------------------------------------
             V
Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7552 alt.sci.physics.new-theories:1991
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ucla-cs!ucla-se!seashell!mitch
From: [e-mail] (Robert R. Mitchell (SEAS admin))
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Subject: Re: Elapsed Time near c (was Re: Q&A on Extraterr
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Jul 92 23:31:57 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <aero.711820272@titan>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: Cyberdyne Systems
Lines: 28

In article <aero.711820272@titan> [e-mail] (Aero Student Account) writes:
>it seems you think you accept relativity.  But the second part shows that you
>have a faulty understanding of it.  NOTE: RELATIVITY PROHIBITS TRAVEL AT
>C OR ABOVE!!!!  PERIOD.  Furthermore, relativity prohibits the transmission
>of any information by any means at speeds faster than light.

Idle speculation from someone whose ignorance
of physics is massive (pun intended):

Does the influence of gravity act instantaneously?  Suppose you had
a mass detector of some sort, and you were detecting mass X at
a distance of say, 1 LY.  If that mass were moved suddenly, wouldn't
your mass detector note the movement instantly?  What glaring blunder
have I committed?

Bonus Round related question:

Do two masses always interact gravitationally, regardless of the
distance between them?  I mean "at all", not "negligible".

I know, there are more appropriate forums for this stuff, but hey,
I'm not going to parade my ignorance in front of the _smart_guys_.

--
DISCLAIMER:                                              | Bob Mitchell
"Don't blame _me_, _I_ didn't do it!" --Krusty the Clown | [e-mail]
"Ididn'tdoitnobodysawmeyoucan'tproveanything!" --Bartman | DOD#[classified]
"Computers are ruining this country." --Al Bundy         | 1987 VT700c
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ucla-cs!ucla-se!seashell!mitch
From: [e-mail] (Robert R. Mitchell (SEAS admin))
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: zeta reticuli
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Jul 92 23:47:22 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Cyberdyne Systems
Lines: 30

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>To heck with how the Pleiadians ships work or how fast they go. HOW DID
>THEY EVOLVE SO DARN FAST?  The Pleiades are bright young stars still
>within their nebular cocoon.  They are along the order of millions of
>years old.  It took life on Earth more than 4 billion years to evolve
>to the point where it could walk upright, talk, and dream silly dreams.
>Are the Pleidians child prodigies?  Btw the first prokaryotes didn't
>evolve here until a billion years or so after the formation of Earth.
>Thomas Freebairn

I think the New Age Crystalbabble party line is that the
Pleiadians were seeded by an elder race; they did not originally
evolve in what is now their home system.  As for the Pleiades,
how far away are they?  You would want to add their distance to
their apparent age (as viewed from Earth) to get the actual age,
right?

Also, if evolution is driven in part by genetic mutation caused
by stellar radiation, can we expect it to "happen faster" in
binary or trinary star systems?

Have I convinced everyone that a liberal arts education
is truly worthless? :-)


--
DISCLAIMER:                                              | Bob Mitchell
"Don't blame _me_, _I_ didn't do it!" --Krusty the Clown | [e-mail]
"Ididn'tdoitnobodysawmeyoucan'tproveanything!" --Bartman | DOD#[classified]
"Computers are ruining this country." --Al Bundy         | 1987 VT700c
Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7554 alt.sci.physics.new-theories:1992
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!sun-barr!west.West.Sun.COM!smaug.West.Sun.COM!richard
From: [e-mail] (Richard M. Mathews)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Subject: Re: Tachyons (was Re: Elapsed Time near c (was Re: Q&A on Extraterr
Date: 25 Jul 1992 00:19:37 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: astro
Originator: [e-mail]

[e-mail] (Ian Wild) writes:

>Wouldn't tachyons have to travel at >c relative to *everything*?  Including
>themselves?

Tachyons are truly bizarre.  Two of them going at >c straight at each
other would actually be going at <c relative to each other!  For example,
plug +2c and -2c into the relative velocity formula
    v_rel = (v1 - v2) / (1 - v1*v2/c^2)
          = (+2c - -2c) / (1 - (2c)(-2c)/c^2)
          = 4c / (1 + 4)
          = - 4/5 c
!!!

     Richard M. Mathews            G eorge
                     D epression
[e-mail]          B ush casts a
                       G loom on us all
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (barry.o.olson)
Subject: Re: Ley Linesj
Organization: AT&T
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 01:50:25 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 5


Hi Everyone,
I'm gonna get totally jaked and blow lunch this sunday.
later,
barry--
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 19:09:05 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Doug: It sounds like you have a clear alert mind and your not
afraid to stand out from the other people and say what you think.
John Winston.
Xref: news.uiowa.edu talk.religion.newage:10946 alt.alien.visitors:7557 sci.skeptic:27890
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 20:12:27 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 11

Dear Astral Folks: The results of the first weekly Astral Convoy was as
follows the person we called E started his astral journey in good order
hitching up with me (I think) and I got a picture of a male person sort of
handsome, looking out to his left and my right. He is white. We then went
over to Hawaii and woke up a lady whoes first name starts with the letter
K (I think).  She woke up at 3:30 am with E. by her side. Gregg didn't
make contact as far as he knows. I don't know what happened to Shannon
and I didn't send him a picture of myself yet. I thought Kumar was in
Germany but he was actually in Penn. USA and he couldn't get himself in
the proper mood to receive me. We now have Linda in England that wants to
get in on this. Remember anybody that wants in, each Wed. 1100 PM
Xref: news.uiowa.edu talk.religion.newage:10947 alt.alien.visitors:7558 sci.skeptic:27892
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From: [e-mail] (barry.o.olson)
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Organization: AT&T
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 04:04:17 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.aliens.visitors
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 41

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> Dear Astral Folks: The results of the first weekly Astral Convoy was as
> follows the person we called E started his astral journey in good order
> hitching up with me (I think) and I got a picture of a male person sort of

How does this astral travel work, i.e., "you think" you hooked up
with E? Are you in a fog?

> handsome, looking out to his left and my right. He is white. We then went

Just curious, how can this guy be perceived as handsome, when you
are not even sure who you hook up with?

> over to Hawaii and woke up a lady whoes first name starts with the letter
> K (I think).  She woke up at 3:30 am with E. by her side. Gregg didn't

How do you know you were in hawaii?

> make contact as far as he knows. I don't know what happened to Shannon

Greg might have hooked-up but doesn't know?

> and I didn't send him a picture of myself yet. I thought Kumar was in
> Germany but he was actually in Penn. USA and he couldn't get himself in

So you quickly left germany and headed for penn?

> the proper mood to receive me. We now have Linda in England that wants to
> get in on this. Remember anybody that wants in, each Wed. 1100 PM


Maybe you were hooked-up with sannon and didn't know it?
Is LSD a prerequisite to astral travel? How much is taken?
I'm curious 'cause your report sounds disjointed and rather vague.

Thanks

P.S. No thanks on the astral offer. If you don't even know who
you are traveling with, you could run into some astral thugs,
unless of course thugs don't travel astral.

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: zeta reticuli
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 36
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: indyvax.iupui.edu
Organization: Indiana University
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Jul 92 00:45:07 -0500

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Robert R. Mitchell (SEAS admin)) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>To heck with how the Pleiadians ships work or how fast they go. HOW DID
>>THEY EVOLVE SO DARN FAST?  The Pleiades are bright young stars still
>>within their nebular cocoon.  They are along the order of millions of
>>years old.  It took life on Earth more than 4 billion years to evolve
>>to the point where it could walk upright, talk, and dream silly dreams.
>>Are the Pleidians child prodigies?  Btw the first prokaryotes didn't
>>evolve here until a billion years or so after the formation of Earth.
>>Thomas Freebairn
>
> I think the New Age Crystalbabble party line is that the
> Pleiadians were seeded by an elder race; they did not originally
> evolve in what is now their home system.

 Yes?

>As for the Pleiades,
> how far away are they?  You would want to add their distance to
> their apparent age (as viewed from Earth) to get the actual age,
> right?

No.

> Also, if evolution is driven in part by genetic mutation caused
> by stellar radiation, can we expect it to "happen faster" in
> binary or trinary star systems?

Yes and no.

> Have I convinced everyone that a liberal arts education
> is truly worthless? :-)>

Maybe.

Thomas Freebairn
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From: [e-mail] (Brick Wilbur)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Abduction case
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Jul 92 07:48:03 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Richard Wilbur)
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, Michigan State University
Lines: 48

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:
|> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Brick Wilbur) writes:
|> >I talked to a leading researcher two weeks ago, and he informed me about the
|> >abduction case that happened in New York.  Someone posted that case earlier.
|> >
|> >The incident was witnessed by all those people who were on the Brooklyn Bridge,
|> >and by the people who were below (on the street ).
|> >
|> >The VERY high ranking official was not disclosed to me.  I was told, however, that
|> >the official's Secret Service agents witnessed these happenings.  It was these
|> >agents that contacted Bud Hopkins.
|> >
|> >The incident happened in 1989, and this official has not made up his mind yet
|> >as to whether he will disclose what he witnessed.
|> >
|> >My source personally knows just about every UFO researcher, and was one of the
|> >key people in organizing the conference at MIT a month ago.
|> >
|> >He an about 7 other researchers have been specifically doing MASSIVE research
|> >on the Roswel crash.  They have uncovered many things that have never been
|> >uncovered before.
|>
|>    Talk is cheap.   But frankly we've been hearing this kind of stuff
|>    for decades now and nobody has ever provided any tangible evidence.
|>
|>    How would Mr. Wilbur like it if I claimed that I have secret information
|>    that absolutely proves that he's making this all up due to some basic
|>    mental instability and that I've talked to doctors and other specialists
|>    who can confirm his condition, but at the moment choose not to do so?
|>
|>    I say put up or shut up.
|>
|>
|> ---peter
|>
|>


I guess, now I know what its like to be on the other side...

Oouch.    Ya have to bite your tongue on this side.

Well, at this point, I dont have any of the privy info.  But, the gentleman that
I speak of is a very respected analyst.  A person who people from both sides of
the controversy come to for opinion/help.   Mike Corbin is one of those people,
for example.

Brick
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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Wanted: Info On Mib
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Jul 92 20:43:02 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 13


 > The bottom of this posting got cut off.  Mike, can you post the
 > remaining info?...Tom

I will send it to you via email so it won't take up any more bandwidth than
needed here.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Request: Roswell Information; And How To Get More
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Jul 92 20:58:05 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
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 >         Let's recap:
 >
 >         Moore and Berlita originally claimed ONE rash near Roswell, and
 > the
 > recovery of FOUR bodies.
 >
 >         Randle and Schmittclaim ONE crash 150 miles west of Roswell, the
 >
 > recovery of THREE bodies and one LIVE alien.
 >
 >         Friedman claims TWO crashes, the first in Roswell with four
 > corpses,
 > and the second at Randle
 > s location with three corpses and one live one.
 >
 >         Friedman maintains that the MJ-12 papers are genuine, in spite
 > of a)
 > near-certain proof that they're counterfeit, and b) it contradicts his
 > two-crash theory. The papers mention only the Roswell crash.
 >
 >         When asked about this contradiction, Friedman merely replied,
 > "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." Well, whuppee. That's
 > certainly a solid answer.

Let's do the recap again ...

1)  Moore and Berlitz write about the alleged crash of a flying disk near
Corona, New Mexico in 1947.  This material is developed as a result of a
witness coming forward and approaching Stanton Friedman.  The witness
is Jesse Marcel, the intelligence officer stationed at Roswell Army Air Base
in 1947, when the crash occurred.   During the Moore investigation, Mac Brazel
is also interviewed, as well as others.

2)  Kevin Randle and Don Schmitt begin a more in-depth investigation of the
crash story and interview almost 300 witnesses who were either directly
involved or indirectly involved in the handling of the wreckage of the downed
craft.  Additional, important information was found in this investigation,
including the exact amount of flights needed to remove the wreckage to
Carswell AFB and then subsequently to Wright-Patterson.  Hence, the publishing
of the book, UFO Crash at Roswell.

3)  Stanton T. Friedman was contacted by Gerald Anderson as a result of a
program aired on Unsolved Mysteries concerning the Roswell crash.  Anderson
claims that he was present at a crash site in 1947, at the age of 5 years old
and observed the craft and bodies of aliens.  However, he was not near Corona,
New Mexico when this happened.  His testimony claims that he was with his
father, uncle and others in the Plains of San Agustin, which is about 250
miles west of the Corona crash site.  The dates of this occurrance coincide
with the July crash observed at Corona.  Friedman surmises that there was a
mid-air collision between two saucers, which brought one down at Corona and
one in the Plains.  Friedman's just released book, Crash at Corona, details
the investigation of Anderson's claims.

At present, there is considerable controversy over the veracity of Anderson's
testimony.  Randle and Schmitt claim that Anderson gave them a couple of
different versions on tape and that his story was too inconsistent.  Friedman,
on the other hand, feels that Anderson is the real thing.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Men In Black
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 24 Jul 92 20:42:01 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 21


 > Yes, Barker was definitely "pulling peoples' chain" with just about
 > everything he wrote. If anyone did anything the least bit strange, he
 > would suggest "was X visited by (gasp!) the Three Men???????".
 >
 > James Moseley, one of the *least-silent* individuals in UFOlogy today,
 > was claimed by Barker in "They Knew Too Much about Flying Saucers" to
 > have
 > been silenced by the MIB during the 1950s. Moseley obviously views the
 > whole thing as a big joke. If you ask him about it, he just smiles
 > and says, "I'm sorry, I'm not at liberty to discuss that!"

What is your reading on John Keel, who also is a big proponent of the MIB
stuff?

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Travis L Takeuchi)
Subject: Re: REQUEST: Roswell information; and how to get more
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 08:36:31 GMT
Lines: 13

>
>        Friedman maintains that the MJ-12 papers are genuine, in spite of a)
>near-certain proof that they're counterfeit, and b) it contradicts his
>two-crash theory. The papers mention only the Roswell crash.
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Brian "Rev. P-K" Siano                                  [e-mail]

Being a complete philistine, may I ask what is the near-certain proof that
the MJ-12 papers are counterfeit?
    Thanx in advance,
    Dominic

Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ley Lines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 06:32:29 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 11

Dear Ley People: I will now put down Part 2 of the information from
Shaari about ley lines.----So then this evening we'll devide it into
two chapters. The first chapter is the mysterious {figures} that have
occurred in the wheat fields across the planet and the second chapter is
the mysterious markings of the Nasca Lines and I know there are hundreds
and thousands more, but for purposes of this evening we'll start with
these two.
   Recently I was involved in a discussion over the telephone with one of the
researchers of these particular circular configurations in the wheat
fields in Great Britain. {It was} a delightful discussion {because} he
asked me what I thought they were, and again my background in the
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ley Lines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 06:50:43 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 11

----Star Command, I am a commanber that deals with holographic healing.
I deal with holographic symbols and I have spent a great deal of time
in studying the akashic records, but as for as being involved with the
research side of the Star Command I personally have not spent that much
time in there.
   Now in meeting this week with beings who were particularly involved
with the research side, certain things came to light. First and foremost
is that the research that is being done in Great Britain, you'll find over
500 diferent types of symbols {alright?}. Some are larger some
are smaller. Some of them are connected, almost like, {being} described
as barbell type of connection, you have a circle {on either} end and
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 07:24:02 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

Dear Press:
One of the problems of astral travel is that is of not very high
frequency and you can run into some very low vibrational entities.
John Winston
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ley Lines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 07:08:05 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 11

---a straight line connecting them. The best symbology is just visualize
it as a barbell.  Others have been seen as a barbell with two little
straight lines that are parallel and close together.  The others are in
more of a configuration that they look like a key, alright? There are
{assumptions} and insinuations maybe these extraterrestials from
another dimension are giving us keys or messages to other conciousnesses
and that they are producing these kinds of signals to communicate to us.
{In our chakras} the Star Command, it isn't so much that they are trying to
to communicate to humanity in this specific symbolic language but
that they are really monitoring the earth and they have been monitoring
the earth at those particular ley lines and ley lines are electromagnetic
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ley Lines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 07:17:26 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 9

----earth lines that cross over in a grid pattern around the earth's
surface. The Star Command has been monitoring these particular
configurations for thousands of years and it is now that they are starting
to  infuse, meaning to {bring in} higher levels of healing energy. So
they are combining both a vibratory quality of energy, a holographic
quality of energy and specific light quality of energy. By light I mean
specific colors of light. They are infusing those at the intersection
points of these ley lines. End of Part 2.
John Winston.
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Questions from an interested party
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 07:32:32 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <c_#[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Bob, kbq, Kevin, Jason, and Bill:
I read your comments and it warms my heart.
John Winston.
Xref: news.uiowa.edu talk.religion.newage:10952 alt.alien.visitors:7571 sci.skeptic:27903
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 07:47:52 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 11

Dear Fellow Earth Travellers: I will now put down the second part of the
information that was sent to me by the lady that founded the Antahkarana
Organization and she is also the person who put the information down that
is found in this particular collection. This from Ashtar---We wish to
inform those of Earth who work with us: NOW IS THE TIME TO UNITE into
the oneness of purpose that will be required of you to create the
vibration for us to land, and join hands, minds, and hearts in this joint
endeavor between dimensions.  As in the movie ET, when the finger of the
alien ET touches the finger of Earth, so can the energies of higher
frequencies reach and work with those in the third dimension. We wish
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 07:59:35 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 11

---to create this link with all of you in a stronger more personal way.
  We are offering you this opportunity ot create a happening on Earth
of a magnitude that will change the destiny of man away from that of
materialism and aggression and propel him into his next step of evolution
in an easy way.  This can be accomplihsed, my brothers and sisters of
Earth, with the interlinking energies of the higher frequencies, the
interstellar commands, and collective mankind. Man's continued
insensitivity to the way he treats his fellow man and Mother Earth has
the potential to create a cataclysm of a magnitude that can literally
shift the poles of Earth and eliminated life as you know it.
  We wish to offer this helping hand to you, our brothers and sisters--
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 08:07:43 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 9

---of Earth, by offering to land openly on your Earth by invitaion and
sharing the knowledge we have gained with you. Then you too may live and
BE IN LOVE, PEACE, HARMONY AND BROTHERHOOD together with all of Creation,
linked to us and beyond to the Creator God.
  I am Astar, your star brother of the planet Venus working with Earth
to assist in Her transformation into the higher frequencies of understanding
known as the higher dimensions, or the GOLDEN AGE of Man. So be it Adonai,
adonai, adonai. Messager, Jean Peterson.
John Winston.
Xref: news.uiowa.edu talk.religion.newage:10956 alt.alien.visitors:7574 sci.skeptic:27907
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!usc!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!att!bu.edu!news.bbn.com!ingria
From: [e-mail] (Bob Ingria)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Jul 92 18:31:50 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Lines: 11
NNTP-Posting-Host: bbn.com
In-reply-to: [e-mail]'s message of Sat, 25 Jul 1992 04:04:17 GMT

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (barry.o.olson) writes:

   P.S. No thanks on the astral offer. If you don't even know who
   you are traveling with, you could run into some astral thugs,
   unless of course thugs don't travel astral.

``This is the Mind Spider, checking in!''
    -- Fritz Leiber, ``The Mind Spider''

-30-
Bob
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!torn!watserv1!mach4!kfisher3
From: [e-mail] (kevin fisher U)
Subject: Kill file
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Summary: kill john winston
Organization: Wilfrid Laurier University
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 18:40:44 GMT
Keywords: kill, john winston
Lines: 14

HEO:
Can someone tell me how to set up my kill file so I don't have to
read John_-_Winston's IDIOT posts anymore?  He's really getting annoying,
especially when he continually violates nettiquitte by BLATANTLY IGNORING
everyone's requests that he use e-mail for his personal babble.


Mucho appreciated,

--
Kevin Fisher      UUCP:[e-mail]
Physics & Computing '92 at WLU  - - "I can't handle it!"

    "Come on and dim the lights;  Switch on the strobe:
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!torn!watserv1!mach4!kfisher3
From: [e-mail] (kevin fisher U)
Subject: Adamski??
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Summary: bogus or true?
Organization: Wilfrid Laurier University
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 18:56:03 GMT
Keywords: george,adamski
Lines: 16

Hello all:

Does anyone know anything about one George Adamski, who seemingly wrote
several books about alien visitors he had contact with?
The only reason  I bring him up is because his description of alien life is
so different from the common (Grey) description.

anks,



--
Kevin Fisher      UUCP:[e-mail]
Physics & Computing '92 at WLU  - - "I can't handle it!"

    "Come on and dim the lights;  Switch on the strobe:
Xref: news.uiowa.edu talk.religion.newage:10958 alt.alien.visitors:7578 sci.skeptic:27908
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!sun4nl!utrcu1!infnews!heksterb
From: [e-mail] (Ben Hekster)
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: sci.skeptic
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: utis96
Organization: University of Twente, Dept. of Computer Science
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 20:42:02 GMT
Lines: 22

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Fellow Earth Travellers: I will now put down the second part of the
>information that was sent to me by the lady that founded the Antahkarana
>[&c., &c.]

As much an accomplishment as interstellar subhyperastral travelling may
be, the Antahkaranians cannot be *that* highly advanced--  their e-mail
messages always seems to be limited to exactly one screenful.  Perhaps
their terminal emulators don't implement scrolling..?  I know, I bet
they still use those old storage-tube displays, heh, heh.

    Just imagine what an absolute *pain* it would be to mail an
Ant'an binaries-- having to split your uuencoded file into 20-line
chunks <shudder>.  Remind me *never* to let one of these guys beta-test
for me!  On the other hand, I suppose that by now they must have
developed some pretty neat shell scripts to do this sort of stuff.

    They *do* use UNIX, don't they, John?

--
Ben `Hackster' Hekster        | "He bides his time and thinks,
[e-mail]        |  'There must be more to life than this!'"
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!dxcern!dscomsa.desy.de!vxdesy.desy.de!silverstein
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Elapsed Time near c (was Re: Q&A on Extraterr
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Lines: 40
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: vxdsya.desy.de
Organization: (DESY, Hamburg, Germany)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <aero.711820272@titan> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 22:11:09 GMT

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Robert R. Mitchell (SEAS admin)) writes:
> Idle speculation from someone whose ignorance
> of physics is massive (pun intended):
>
> Does the influence of gravity act instantaneously?  Suppose you had
> a mass detector of some sort, and you were detecting mass X at
> a distance of say, 1 LY.  If that mass were moved suddenly, wouldn't
> your mass detector note the movement instantly?  What glaring blunder
> have I committed?

Gravity wave detectors have been built to detect such events as supernovae
over long distances, but as far as I am aware, no positive measurements have
been made yet (none of them were turned on when SN1987A was observed).
However, it is believed that the gravitational force is transmitted at light
speed, and not instantaneously.

>
> Bonus Round related question:
>
> Do two masses always interact gravitationally, regardless of the
> distance between them?  I mean "at all", not "negligible".
>

Yes, the gravitational force, like the electromagnetic force, is said to have
an "infinite" range, which means that its effect is exactly zero only at an
infinite separation.

> I know, there are more appropriate forums for this stuff, but hey,
> I'm not going to parade my ignorance in front of the _smart_guys_.
>
> --
> DISCLAIMER:                                              | Bob Mitchell
> "Don't blame _me_, _I_ didn't do it!" --Krusty the Clown | [e-mail]
> "Ididn'tdoitnobodysawmeyoucan'tproveanything!" --Bartman | DOD#[classified]
> "Computers are ruining this country." --Al Bundy         | 1987 VT700c

Sam Silverstein
UW Madison department of Physics
_NOT_ to be confused with UW Eau Claire, home of physicist ROBERT MCELWAINE!
(geez...I kinda miss him in a way...;-)
Xref: news.uiowa.edu sci.skeptic:27912 alt.alien.visitors:7580
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!rosevax!aquarius!grante
From: [e-mail] (Grant Edwards)
Subject: Re: Human Parthenogenesis? (Was: Questions from an interested p
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News administrator)
Nntp-Posting-Host: aquarius
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Grant Edwards)
Organization: Rosemount, Inc.
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 19:34:00 GMT
Lines: 24

[e-mail] (Kevin Quinn) writes:
: [e-mail] writes:
: >write The Third Eye, a book that I love.  Lobsang had an Englishman's
: >body that was never in Tibet.  He had been living as a Tibetian monk
: >for many years then he made a switch with an Englishman who was ready to
: >pass on anyway.
:
: Oh good god, John, you get more rabid by the month!
:
: On the other hand, you're almost as entertaining as scanning the tabloid
: headlines in the supermarket checkouts.  Keep it up!
:

Ah, but the tabloids have PICTURES!  John will never be able to
compete with the darling pictures of Nessie's baby, or the flying
saucer sitting on the flight deck of the Nimitz that the Weekly World
News had.  Or is it the World Weekly News?  Either way it's a great
paper.

--
Grant Edwards                                 |Yow!  I want to so HAPPY, the
Rosemount Inc.                                |VEINS in my neck STAND OUT!!
                                              |
[e-mail]                 |
Xref: news.uiowa.edu talk.religion.newage:10959 alt.alien.visitors:7581 sci.skeptic:27914
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!rosevax!aquarius!grante
From: [e-mail] (Grant Edwards)
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News administrator)
Nntp-Posting-Host: aquarius
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Grant Edwards)
Organization: Rosemount, Inc.
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 21:12:53 GMT
Lines: 15

[e-mail] writes:
: Dear Doug: It sounds like you have a clear alert mind and your not
: afraid to stand out from the other people and say what you think.
: John Winston.

Brilliant.  Sounds like one of those statements you hear from
astrologers with which at least 95% of the population will agree.

(I'm not implying that the statement is false in Doug's case.)

--
Grant Edwards                                 |Yow!  I am a jelly donut.  I
Rosemount Inc.                                |am a jelly donut.
                                              |
[e-mail]                 |
Xref: news.uiowa.edu talk.religion.newage:10960 alt.alien.visitors:7582 sci.skeptic:27918
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!decwrl!bu.edu!wang!news
From: [e-mail] (Warren Burstein)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 25 Jul 92 22:50:06 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]><[e-mail]>   <[e-mail]><[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Followup-To: talk.religion.newage
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Lines: 11

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

    Dear Dan: Your pretty cotton picking funny. Sounds like your having
    a good laugh out of all of this.

I hope we all are.
--
/|/-\/-\       I'll leave you with this saying:
 |__/__/_/     Being a BALD HERO is almost as FESTIVE as a TATTOOED
 |warren@      KNOCKWURST.
/ nysernet.org
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!decwrl!access.usask.ca!ccu.umanitoba.ca!bison!sys6626!titan
From: [e-mail] (Titanium Knight)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Stealth Manuscript
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 21:40:47 CST
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: system 6626 BBS, Winnipeg MB
Lines: 29

> "Booksellers are grinding their teeth over several big Ross Perot books
> that have been cancelled on the eve of publication.  BUT SOMETHING BIGGER
> MAY BE COMING SOON (my emphasis).  Putnam is preparing to ship more than
> 100,000 copies of a supersecret book in late August.  The publisher is
> keeping both the subject and the author completely confidential.  According
> to buyers for the major chains, Putnam executives have been whispering that
> it is a biography of a major Washington official that contains information
> so explosive it could cause his or her resignation.  This has prompted a
> guessing game within the industry, but Putnam executives say only
> 'No Comment.'"
> Anticipation will antagonize me until late August!  I certainly hope that
> this will not turn out to be hoax.

Sounds interesting, but do you think it involves UFO/Aliens?  When it
comes out PLEASE leave some information on here.  Even it dosen't involve
UFOs, it could be a good book (if it's true).

                         ______________
   \ /                  //   ______   \\              :   .       .     :
   -O-       __________/________________\__________    :T i t a n i u m:
   / \    __//                                    \\__  : K n i g h t :
         /.      .      .      .      .      .      . \  :           :
         \____________________________________________/
  //              / /        / --- \       \ \
\X/ AMIGA       _/_/_      _/ ----- \_     _\_\_       alt.alien.visitors

;--- (Titanium Knight) a user of sys6626, running waffle 1.64
;E-mail: [e-mail]
;system 6626: 63 point west drive, winnipeg manitoba canada R3T 5G8
Xref: news.uiowa.edu talk.religion.newage:10961 alt.alien.visitors:7584 sci.skeptic:27920
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!usc!sdd.hp.com!news.cs.indiana.edu!lynx!carina.unm.edu!hillman
From: [e-mail] (Dan Hillman)
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 92 09:46:56 GMT
Organization: Holy Order of Quadra 950 Lust
Lines: 23

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Dan: Your pretty cotton picking funny. Sounds like your having
>a good laugh out of all of this.
>John Winston.

Dear John,

Your (sic) right; I fudge my Levis in glee every time I see one of
you're (sic) posts.

I am amazed that fully half of the traffic of this newsgroup is comprised
of your three-line messages ("I'm having an astral wank, everybody!"),
empty posts (" "), and one-screen text dumps.

Call me a skeptic, but I would think an intelligent life form who
wanted information distributed would get in touch with someone who had
a clue.

--
| _   ;/                                                          Dan Hillman
|(")_/   "I'm right and you're not."                   [e-mail]
|~~/                                                 University of New Mexico
|~/                                               Land of Fucking Enchantment
Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7585 sci.skeptic:27921
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!thad
From: [e-mail] (Thad P Floryan)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Elapsed Time near c (was Re: Q&A on Extraterr
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 92 05:04:00 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <aero.711820272@titan>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 34

If anyone else is receiving insulting email messages from:

    Greg Aicklen <[e-mail]>
    Research Engineering Associate
    Erik Jonsson School of Engineering and Computer Science
    University of Texas at Dallas

then feel welcome to respond with my reply (enclosed) for which I relinquish
all copyrights and place into the public domain for YOUR use as a reply.

Thad Floryan [ [e-mail] ]

---------- begin enclosure

[bad language follows; hit 'n' now if neccessary; tit for tat]


"One should never assess a situation from the end of a conversation."

And one shouldn't foam at the mouth without a clear understanding of what's
transpired before YOUR transgression.

And so what is YOUR problem?  You jump in without any background (since you
haven't established your veracity or credentials) or having apparently read
any of the preceding OR following articles.  Reminds me of all the pseudo-
/pop-"scientists" who have their heads so far up their asshole they cannot
see beyond their own shit: yes, this means YOU.

Suggest you tone down your demeanor, become more civil, and get a life.

No-one is forcing you to read the newsgroup; go back to alt.sex and beat
your meat on your keyboard if that's how you get your jollies.

---------- end enclosure
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!pipex!demon!cix.compulink.co.uk!dingbat
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
From: [e-mail] (Codesmiths)
Subject: Re: Boy or Girl  (was Re: e: Ley Lines)
Cc: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 14:31:55 +0000
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 15

In-Reply-To:  [e-mail]

[Mysterious stone walls]

> My sources of information
> say that they are about 22,000 or more years old.


How is that date derived ?  Do you have any more details on these
walls (I've not heard of them before, but then I am on another
continent !) Are they literally continuous walls, or are they lines
of separate stones ?  Are there any signs of deliberate stone-masonry
on them ?

          Andy Dingley    [e-mail]
Path: news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!wupost!tulane!ukma!hsdndev!dartvax!Frederick.A.Ringwald
From: [e-mail] (Frederick A. Ringwald)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Men In Black (mib)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 26 Jul 92 15:12:23 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
 <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The News Manager)
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
Lines: 11

In article <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] (Leonard Spani) writes:

> If the Belgian government thought the UFOs were some kind of secret
> American aircraft being tested (illegally) over their country, I would
> expect them to "threaten" the Americans by allowing the *public* release
> of *any* information they find out about the objects.

But, such a threat would be much more effective if made in secret,
i.e., those concerned in the U.S. Government would hear about it, but
you wouldn't, as this itslef would be public disclosure!
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!cs.utexas.edu!torn!watserv1!mach4!kfisher3
From: [e-mail] (kevin fisher U)
Subject: alt.alien.visitors crossposts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Summary: default crossposters
Organization: Wilfrid Laurier University
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 92 16:58:55 GMT
Keywords: new.age
Lines: 17

I have yet another question:

Why is it these new.age people INSIST on crossposting by default with
alt.alien.visitors?  I don't see the connection between the silly
hindu-buddhist-guru mix and the possibility of extra-terrestrial life, and I
refuse to believe any of the garbage our friend JW keeps posting about
"prime directives" and "space councils" and the like.

Just a question from someone tired of tabloid-minded people...



--
Kevin Fisher      UUCP:[e-mail]
Physics & Computing '92 at WLU  - - "I can't handle it!"

    "Come on and dim the lights;  Switch on the strobe:
Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7589 sci.skeptic:27925
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!m.cs.uiuc.edu!cs.uiuc.edu!mcgrath
From: [e-mail] (Robert McGrath)
Subject: Re: Erich Von Daniken
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Database (admin-Mike Schwager))
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 20:26:18 GMT
Lines: 71

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Thad P Floryan) writes in part:
|> In article <[e-mail]>
|> [e-mail] (Robert McGrath) writes:
|>
|> >In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Thad P Floryan) writes
|>  in part:
|> >|>[...]
|> >|> Some actual (and identifiable) dinosaur footprints were present in the rock
|> ,
|> >|> along with what appeared to me (and these were the ones labelled as "unknow
|> n")
|> >|> to be the tracks of a military jeep.  Two parallel tracks with about a 5 fo
|> ot
|> >|> separation (for some 15 feet, in the slab fragment) which resembled today's
|> >|> high-tech all-weather tire-treads.  Tracks which were made millions of year
|> s
|> >|> ago. Incredible; I'll never forget that sight; and when I uttered that thou
|> ght
|> >|> out loud (I was only about 8 years old then), everyone turned around and
|> >|> looked at me strangely, yet no-one made any comments or smiled.  [ See belo
|> w ]
|> >
|> >Incredible is the word.  This would be a lot harder to understand if I
|> >hadn't read the classic science fiction story of that time from which
|> >this little joke was taken.
|>
|> If it's a joke, then it's one on me [for I was there].
|>
|> However, I'm not going to "defend" my remembrance since nearly 40 years have
|> elapsed (this was about 1952-1953; we lived in the area from 1951 to 1956).
|>
|> And at that (original) time I was in the company of my Dad who desired to
|> tour the entire Museum in one day (he was like that; and the museum occupied
|> an entire city block [it was HUGE]).
|>
|> Next time I'm in DC, I'll make a point to re-visit that Smithsonian exhibit
|> and attempt to collect more info; this cannot be until at least mid-1993.
|>
|> One correspondent commented that perhaps the tracks were those of amphibians'
|> flippers.  'Spossible (and more plausible!)  All I stated was that the tracks
|> bore a resemblance to tire tracks, NOT that they were tire tracks!  :-)
|>
|> As for science-fiction, could not the author have seen the same exhibit which
|> stimulated HIS story?  Have you a reference [title, author, etc.]?
|>
|> Thad Floryan [ [e-mail] ]

The idea appeared in the story "Times Arrow" by Arthur C. Clarke in 1952.
The copy I have is in a the collection "Reach for Tomorrow", with the date
1956.  In the preface there is the following interesting comment:

  "Times Arrow" is an example of how hard it is for the science-fiction
  writer to keep ahead of fact.  The quite--at the time the story was
  written--imaginary discovery described in the tale now actually exists,
  and may be seen in the New York Natural History Museum.  I think it most
  unlikely that the rest of the story will bome true . . . .

Clearly, ACC made this up, and just about the right time for the museum
to obtain one.  ACC's comments open the question of whether there were
two (or even more) copies of this unique artifact, which materialized
just after he invented it!  Time travel is a non-obvious business, even
in reality. :-)

Thanks to those who set me on the track of this reference.  My ACC
books are getting pretty dusty and lonely deep in the archives, a fate
that they surely do not deserve.

--
  Robert E. McGrath
  Urbana Illinois
  [e-mail]
Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.config:9028 alt.alien.visitors:7590 alt.paranormal:5497
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!sun-barr!news2me.ebay.sun.com!jethro.Corp.Sun.COM!starflight!jdr
From: [e-mail] (Jon Roland)
Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: RFD: Split, rename alt.alien.visitors
Followup-To: alt.config
Date: 27 Jul 1992 04:34:36 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Lines: 44
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
NNTP-Posting-Host: starflight.corp.sun.com

In article [e-mail], [e-mail] (Jon Roland) writes:
>That leaves one other possibility, using two 2nd-level names:
>
>alt.alien.coverups    - official coverups, disinformation, harrassments
>alt.alien.meetings    - close encounters of 3rd and 4th kinds, abductions
>alt.anomaly.circles    - crop circles, unidentified ground markings
>alt.anomaly.mutilations    - strange mutilations
>alt.anomaly.ufos    - aerial sightings, close encounters of 1st and 2nd kind

Since this posting responses suggest that it would be less disruptive without
much loss of meaning if we left alt.alien.meetings named alt.alien.visitors.
There is merit to this suggestion and I am prepared to accept it.

It also occurred to me that these third-level names are not exclusive, so that
there should be a "misc" catchall for each. Thus, we would have

alt.alien.coverups    - official coverups, disinformation, harrassments
alt.alien.visitors    - close encounters of 3rd and 4th kinds, abductions
alt.alien.misc        - subjects not included in above
alt.anomaly.circles    - crop circles, unidentified ground markings
alt.anomaly.mutilations    - strange mutilations
alt.anomaly.ufos    - aerial sightings, close encounters of 1st and 2nd kind
alt.anomaly.misc    - subjects not included in above

It was suggested that "paranormal" be used in place of "anomaly" in the above,
but that group has become dominated by new-age types.

If someone were of a mind to break out alt.paranormal, however, I would suggest

alt.paranormal.esp    - telepathy, clairvoyance, precognition, telekinesis
alt.paranormal.dead    - contact with the dead, ghosts, reincarnation
alt.paranormal.creature    - strange creatures, such as bigfoot, yeti
alt.paranormal.missing    - strange disappearances
alt.paranormal.reveal    - revealed wisdom, impending momentous events
alt.paranormal.injury    - strange injuries, such as spontaneous combustion
alt.paranormal.misc    - subjects not included in above

---

[e-mail], [e-mail]
Jon Roland
Starflight Corporation, 1755 E Bayshore Rd #9A,
Redwood City, CA 94063-4142, 415/361-8141

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!munnari.oz.au!metro!usage!syacus!steven
From: [e-mail] (Steven Malikoff)
Subject: Re: NASA's Block of Ice!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: ACUS Australian Centre for Unisys Software, Sydney
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 23:25:01 GMT
Lines: 22

[e-mail] (Rod Beckwith) writes:
: I also have a question for you folks DOWN UNDER.(That's AUSTRAILIA for
: those of you who don't know where down under is.) I recall that about 3-4
: years ago that
: an egg shaped craft buzzed a family in a car on some highway down there. As
: I recall there was some material released by the craft & it was retrieved
: by the occupants of the vehicle. The material was brought in for analysis &
: that was the last I ever heard about it. I think a fishing boat offshore
: also reported
: seeing the craft about an hour later. There was quite a bit of news on the
: incident back then, but as most  news stories go , the press never really
: follows up.

If the "incident" you refer to was the ufo that buzzed a car driving across
the Simpson desert (could have been the Nullarbor) then sorry, that turned
out to be a hoax. I remember just after, an ad appeared in the paper for
something or other (might have been car insurance?) featuring a ufo landing
on a car, with the caption "This wouldn't have happened if you'd had <blah
blah blah>".

Steve.
[e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!munnari.oz.au!cs.mu.OZ.AU!munta.cs.mu.OZ.AU!curmi
From: [e-mail] (Jamie Paul CURMI)
Subject: Why not Australia?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Summary: WHY not Australia?
Keywords: australia, bases, ufos, kangaroos, greys, vegemite
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Computer Science, University of Melbourne, Australia
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 06:25:07 GMT
Lines: 12

Just a thought....

Perhaps that big rock in the centre aint really just a rock?

\(^_^)/

Jamie

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------            Jamie P. Curmi  ([e-mail], [e-mail])                      Department of Computer Science,   Department of Mathematics
         The University of Melbourne, Parkville, Victoria, Australia            ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    *** Mutate NOW - avoid the rush! ***
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!wupost!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!ParaNet(sm).Information.Service
From: [e-mail] (sm)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: STRONG WORD OF CAUTION!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Jul 92 06:56:03 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 25


 * Forwarded from "ParaNet UFO Echo"
 * Originally from ParaNet(sm) Information Service
 * Originally dated 07-26-92 23:56

Over the last few days we have been posting information supplied by the Phoenix
Project of Carson City, Nevada.  This information has been strongly disclaimed
by ParaNet pending the results of our investigation to determine the validity
of the Phoenix Project and its officers.

While the investigation is still ongoing, we have found some highly disturbing
things relating to credibility of the group.  This information will be reported
as soon as the investigation is completed.  This should be in the next few
days.

Until this investigation is complete and the findings published, ParaNet wishes
to urge everyone not to send any money to the group.

Michael Corbin
Director

--
ParaNet(sm) Information Service - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: ParaNet(sm)[e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!uunet!mcsun!ieunet!tcdcs!unix1.tcd.ie!ewillims
From: [e-mail] (Emma Williams)
Subject: E.W.- UFO sighted!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (NN required at ashe.cs.tcd.ie)
Nntp-Posting-Host: unix1.tcd.ie
Organization: Trinity College, Dublin
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 10:56:49 GMT
Lines: 25

 Here is a news article as reported in today's Irish Independant
Newspaper, Monday, July 27th......


    SPY PLANE SPARKS SCARE


A MYSTERIOUS, fast moving shape in the sky has been
scaring sheep in western Scotland and rattling
windows in Los Angeles.
    There are reports of sudden "pulsating roars".






That's all it said.... Are we to presume that these events have
happened simultaneously??? Reporting just isn't what it used to be!

    ____________________________________________________________________
    |   Emma Williams            | Dad, I guess you're wondering why   |
    |   [e-mail]    | I'm ringing you..--Calvin & Hobbes  |
    |                 | (eller Steen og Stoffer :-> )       |
    |____________________________|_____________________________________|
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!uknet!warwick!mrccrc!mrccrc!sgamble
From: [e-mail] (Steve Gamble x3293)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: REQUEST: Roswell information; and how to get more
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Jul 92 10:22:45 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Steve Gamble x3293)
Organization: MRC Human Genome Mapping Project Resource Centre, Harrow, UK
Lines: 40
Nntp-Posting-Host: germanium

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Student Class Account) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Steve Gamble x3293) writes:
> >To coincide with the MUFON Conference last weekend in Alberquerque
> >Stanton Friedman and Don Berliner's new book "Crash at Corona" was
> >released. This week Stan is doing a lecture tour around New Mexico.
> >

    {stuff deleted}

> >At the MUFON Press Conference at Alberquerque there was a heated
> >exchange of views between Kevin Randle, representing a local Roswell
> >paper (also author with Don Schmitt of Crash at Roswell) and Stan.
>
> Maybe this debate was over the second crash site or something?
>
> James

If I remember correctly, it was along the lines that Kevin felt that
Stan was on dangerous ground because he felt he (KR) had evidence which
showed one of Stan's main witnesses to be a liar.

From what Stan said in his lecture, he managed to sell all 100 copies
of Crash at Corona he had at the MUFON conference.

If you want to did into the Roswell case, as well as the books Roswell
Incident, UFO Crash at Roswell and Crash at Corona, there is also a
book produced by Center for UFO Studies which is a collection of papers
by various authors concerning Roswell. There is also a video produced by
the Fund for UFO Research (?Recollections of Roswell)


Steve.



--
(Disclaimer: These are not my employer's opinions, they may not even be mine!)
Steve Gamble, Computing Services, Clinical Research Centre and Human Genome
Mapping Project Resource Centre, Watford Road, Harrow, Middlesex, HA1 3UJ, UK.
Phone: [phone]  JANET: [e-mail] INTERNET: [e-mail]
Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.config:9030 alt.alien.visitors:7596
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!eff!ibmpcug!mantis!mathew
From: mathew <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: RFD: Split, rename alt.alien.visitors
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 13:27:42 BST
References: <[e-mail]>
Distribution: world
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.
Lines: 41

[e-mail] (Jon Roland) writes:
> alt.strange.ufos    - aerial sightings, close encounters of 1st and 2nd kind
> alt.strange.aliens    - close encounters of 3rd and 4th kinds, abductions
> alt.strange.circles    - crop circles, unidentified ground markings
> alt.strange.mutilations    - strange mutilations
> alt.strange.coverups    - official coverups, disinformation, harrassments
>
> All these work except the last. We could try "anomaly":
>
> alt.anomaly.ufos    - aerial sightings, close encounters of 1st and 2nd kind
> alt.anomaly.aliens    - close encounters of 3rd and 4th kinds, abductions
> alt.anomaly.circles    - crop circles, unidentified ground markings
> alt.anomaly.mutilations    - strange mutilations
> alt.anomaly.coverups    - official coverups, disinformation, harrassments

I suggest "forteana".

alt.forteana.ufos
alt.forteana.aliens
alt.forteana.circles
alt.forteana.mutilations
alt.forteana.coverups

And, of course, we could have an

alt.forteana.misc

for discussion of general Fortean events.

The only problem I can see is that not everyone will have heard of or read
The Fortean Times, so you'd get people asking what Forteana are and who
Charles Fort was.

Of course, this isn't a bad thing, as anyone interested in such topics damn
well ought to have a subscription to the Fortean Times.


mathew
--
This disclaimer does not represent the views of Mantis Consultants Ltd

Xref: news.uiowa.edu talk.religion.newage:10972 alt.alien.visitors:7597 sci.skeptic:27948
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 09:01:33 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 6

Dear Dan: I wish that I had you with me yesterday down in Souther Calif.
on a 5 miles hike into some American Indian ancient country. That would
have taken some of the starch out of your levies. We were in an area
where people have sightings of what the indians call Thunderbird and
what scientist call the pterodactyl.
John Winston.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!ira.uka.de!math.fu-berlin.de!hrz.tu-chemnitz.de!jahe
From: [e-mail] (Jane Hennig)
Subject: Ships to India or Pakistan
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Owner of all binaries)
Organization: tu-chemnitz
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 15:55:16 GMT
Lines: 11

Peter and Mario want to travel to India.

Who knows from which European harbors are going ships
to India or Pakistan?

Please, when you can help me, write as soon as possible.

Thank you!!!


Fine, holidays for all nn-readers. :-)
Xref: news.uiowa.edu talk.religion.newage:10973 alt.alien.visitors:7599 sci.skeptic:27949
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 09:17:25 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 9

Dear Warren, Grant, Ben and Bob:
I once had the pleasure of reading some material called The Sabors
Portions from the Sananda Sanat Kamara Association.  It was great
material but it did repeat itself a lot and had a lot of mistakes in
it.  A young man came along and took the time to read and correct the
mistakes so that everybody could understand it.  A master came along
and read the information after it was corrected and said, "The information
goes out the way it was before".
John Winston.
Xref: news.uiowa.edu sci.skeptic:27950 alt.alien.visitors:7600
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Human Parthenogenesis? (Was: Questions from an interested p
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 09:28:21 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 6

Dear Grant: I will have to admit that a good deal of what the pulp
magazines contain is just something to sell papers but sometime they contain
pearls of wisdom that do come through. I believe that very little can
be learned by looking at the headlines of the tabloids as one goes
through the checkout line.
John Winston.
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: What the hell is a ley line??
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 09:40:48 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 5

Dear Everybody:
I just got back from my trip into the 30,000 year old city in Southern
Calif.  I enjoyed myself and truely it can be said about the city,
Truely The Half Has Not Been Told.
John Winston.
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Men In Black (mib)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 09:52:03 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 9

Dear Fredrich: This weekend I was in Southern Calif. on a 5 mile hike
into some American Indian country and a person by the name of Robert
Stanley told me that he once was taken on a ride aboard a Earth built
flying disk craft.  The craft was piloted by an American person. Robert
and the pilot were picked up by a craft that was a remotely controlled
craft. When they got into the craft the American took control of the
ship and they went over and observed the Persian Gulf War that was at
that time going on.
John Winston.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!europa.asd.contel.com!darwin.sura.net!mips!odin!slugo.corp.sgi.com!rodb
From: [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith)
Subject: John_-_Winston Poll
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: Get a clue numb----.
Sender: [e-mail] (Net News)
Nntp-Posting-Host: slugo.corp.sgi.com
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 17:10:26 GMT
Lines: 32

Hello any & everybody,

Mabye John will get the MESSAGE this way?!?! All those in favor of dear old
John_-_Winston sending e-mail instead of posting his responses to the world
at large , please post a RE: to this message to let the post happy
bandwidth burner
know we are all growing weary of his blatent disregard for information
dissemination in an organized & efficient manner.The next step of course
would be to contact the NETWORK POLICE to give him a keyboard enema.

The choices are:

yes [X] John,please refrain from posting what should be email responses to
this newsgroup.

no [ ] John, continue with your irratating ways. We love to read all of
your responses to questions & flames that we have never seen.

the old moronic no opinion [ ] What a stupid idea in the first place,who
cares about someone with no opinion.

Rod

--
Rod Beckwith     |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Datacom I/S      |"The great obstacle of progress is not ignorance,
[e-mail]|but the illusion of knowledge."
                 |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$




Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Men In Black
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 10:07:33 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 11

Dear Mike: Please let me put my two cents worth in here. In my humble
opinion I think that John Keel has put out a lot of very good information
but now that he is writing for Fate magazine it appears that his
attitude towards some subjects seem to be one of disbelief in quite a
few different subjects. It appears that sometimes a person will back
off a litte just to stay alive.  Obtaining information about people
who have knowledge of MIBs is sort of like interviewing a person
who has been attempted to be eaten by a white shark. Their are not
very many people who have lived to talk about it. If you have the
experience you are convienced not to talk about it. If you do continue
to talk about it you wake up dead.  John Winston.
Path: news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Boy or Girl  (was Re: e: Ley Lines)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 10:41:04 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 11

Dear Andy: How are you today, I forgot to ask? Please forgive me but
hello Andy is a saying I use to greet any and everone. How are you I forgot
to ask is a joke amoung my friends.  You asked about the Mysterious Rock
Walls. They have been invertigated by many groups. Some people think
they are only 220 years old but my friends think they are 22,000 years
old and that information comes from psychics mostly. They appear to
be is some cases to be only about 4 feet tall and about 1 and one half
feet wide. They will run for hundreds of yards and even have two
walls running along parallel to one another. There is a group investigating
them in Fremont Caif. that one of the members of the group was a
medical doctor whoes last name is Fisher.----John Winston.------
Xref: news.uiowa.edu talk.religion.newage:10974 alt.alien.visitors:7606 sci.skeptic:27955
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!darwin.sura.net!jvnc.net!yale.edu!think.com!news.bbn.com!ingria
From: [e-mail] (Bob Ingria)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Date: 27 Jul 1992 17:42:22 GMT
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
NNTP-Posting-Host: bbn.com
In-reply-to: [e-mail]'s message of 27 Jul 92 16:01:33 GMT

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

   Dear Dan: I wish that I had you with me yesterday down in Souther Calif.
   on a 5 miles hike into some American Indian ancient country. That would
   have taken some of the starch out of your levies. We were in an area
   where people have sightings of what the indians call Thunderbird and
   what scientist call the pterodactyl.

You realize, of course, that partaking of what winos call Thunderbird
can produce visions of what scientists call the pterodactyl.

-30-
Bob

Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Boy or Girl  (was Re: e: Ley Lines)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 10:48:03 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 8

---There is a lady who has done a lot of investigating on the Mysterious
Rock Walls and she has a newsletter about them and other energy points.
You might write her if you like.
Louise Lacey P.O. Box 489 Berkeley, Calif. 94701
This weekend I was near Malibu, Caliif. in the ruins of a 30,000 year
old city and it had wall just about like the walls up here in the
San Francisco Bay Area. The city was called Mu.
John Winston.
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Kill file
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 10:54:14 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

Dear Kevin:
I believe that if you use the commands subscribe and unsubscribe it
will give you what you want.
John Winston.
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Is Bigfoot a Visitor?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 11:04:35 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

Dear Rod:
I enjoyed your account of Bigfoot.  It sounds like most of the information
that has come my way about him or her.
John Winston.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!news.cs.indiana.edu!lynx!carina.unm.edu!cary
From: [e-mail] (Ithlial the Archer)
Subject: Re: zeta reticuli
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 17:39:47 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 59

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert R. Mitchell (SEAS admin)) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>To heck with how the Pleiadians ships work or how fast they go. HOW DID
>>THEY EVOLVE SO DARN FAST?  The Pleiades are bright young stars still
>>within their nebular cocoon.  They are along the order of millions of
>>years old.  It took life on Earth more than 4 billion years to evolve
>>to the point where it could walk upright, talk, and dream silly dreams.
>>Are the Pleidians child prodigies?  Btw the first prokaryotes didn't
>>evolve here until a billion years or so after the formation of Earth.
>>Thomas Freebairn
>
>I think the New Age Crystalbabble party line is that the
>Pleiadians were seeded by an elder race; they did not originally
>evolve in what is now their home system.  As for the Pleiades,
>how far away are they?  You would want to add their distance to
>their apparent age (as viewed from Earth) to get the actual age,
>right?
>
>Also, if evolution is driven in part by genetic mutation caused
>by stellar radiation, can we expect it to "happen faster" in
>binary or trinary star systems?
>
>Have I convinced everyone that a liberal arts education
>is truly worthless? :-)

No, you ask some good questions.

I don't remember how far the pleiades are from us, but they are within
our galaxy, so they are a few thousand light years away at most, an
insignificant time period.

They are also _VERY_ young, the reflection nebulae that surraounds them
is left over from their formation.  Any planets that have formed are
at best barren and atmosphere-less, or at wordt still molten.  The
estimates of the age are in the million of years,  orders of magnitude
younger than the earth was when single celled life appeared here.

Evolution hasn't come in to play yet so the radiation from being in
orbit around multiple O or B type star system isn't a factor.  (O and
B type starts are the hottest type stars, which many of the memebers
of the Pleiades cluster are.)

>--
>DISCLAIMER:                                              | Bob Mitchell
>"Don't blame _me_, _I_ didn't do it!" --Krusty the Clown | [e-mail]
>"Ididn'tdoitnobodysawmeyoucan'tproveanything!" --Bartman | DOD#[classified]
>"Computers are ruining this country." --Al Bundy         | 1987 VT700c

Ithlial

My opinions, mine, mine, mine!

I bet the main reason the police keep people away from a plane crash
is they don't want anybody walking in and lying down in the crash
stuff, then, when some comes up, act like they just woke up and go,
"What, was THAT?!"



Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!rutgers!igor.rutgers.edu!dropout.rutgers.edu!mcgrew
From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Erich Von Daniken
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Jul 92 18:14:15 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 33

Hi,

    [e-mail] (Melissa )
    I was just wondering if anyone out there took seriously
    the theories and claims of famed author and traveler Erich Von
    Daniken.

.... you may want to look for Clifford Wilson's books "Crash go the
Chariots" and "The Chariots still Crash", for further information on
EVD's evidence for his thesis.  The sum of the matter is that EVD's
supporting "evidence" is not what he says it is.  Here's the
publication information from the Rutgers library catalog:


   AUTHOR Wilson, Clifford A
    TITLE Crash go the chariots / Clifford Wilson.
  EDITION Rev. and enl.
PUBLISHER San Diego, Calif. : Master Books, 1976.


   AUTHOR Wilson, Clifford A.
    TITLE The chariots still crash / Clifford Wilson.
PUBLISHER New York : New American Library, [1976] c1975.


.... Read those for a another viewpoint on things.  I always had
problems with some of EVD's evidence; saying that the Pyramids were
unbuildable without help ignores the amazing engineering genius that
humans (even ancient humans) posses.  Its an interesting thesis, of
course, but in my opinion EVD's evidence should not be taken at face
value.  (Don't forget the "Gold of the Gods" fiasco.)

Charles
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!dtix!darwin.sura.net!wupost!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!sunova!andorra!kevin
From: [e-mail] (Kevin Nelson)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: John_Winston-Complete incineration
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Jul 92 18:47:26 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (News Admin)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Kevin Nelson)
Organization: Superconducting Super Collider Laboratory
Lines: 23
Nntp-Posting-Host: andorra.ssc.gov


>From: [e-mail]

>who have knowledge of MIBs is sort of like interviewing a person
>who has been attempted to be eaten by a white shark. Their are not
>very many people who have lived to talk about it. If you have the
>experience you are convienced not to talk about it. If you do continue
>to talk about it you wake up dead.  John Winston.



               Hey John, just how does one "wake up dead"....
               Was your brain abducted sometime back?
               Maybe someone, something will trip while
               treading upon the surface of Uranus and look
               down and say "look doesn't that appear to be a brain
               or what used to be one!!"

               Look if you keep posting this ridiculous garbage
               you're just going to have to endure the heat.....

               May the toast be with you John......

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!sunova!andorra!kevin
From: [e-mail] (Kevin Nelson)
Subject: John_Winston-Complete incineration
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Admin)
Nntp-Posting-Host: andorra.ssc.gov
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Kevin Nelson)
Organization: Superconducting Super Collider Laboratory
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 18:52:32 GMT
Lines: 25


>From: [e-mail]

>who have knowledge of MIBs is sort of like interviewing a person
>who has been attempted to be eaten by a white shark. Their are not
>very many people who have lived to talk about it. If you have the
>experience you are convienced not to talk about it. If you do continue
>to talk about it you wake up dead.  John Winston.



               Hey John, just how does one "wake up dead"....
               Was your brain abducted sometime back?
               Maybe someone, something will trip while
               treading upon the surface of Uranus and look
               down and say "look doesn't that appear to be a brain
               or what used to be one!!"

               Look if you keep posting this ridiculous garbage
               you're just going to have to endure the heat.....

               May the toast be with you John......



Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!malgudi.oar.net!news.ans.net!nynexst.com!mirage!pjc
From: [e-mail] (Peter Colonel)
Subject: Re: John_-_Winston Poll : yes [X]
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: Get a clue numb----.
Sender: [e-mail] (For News purposes)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Peter Colonel)
Organization: Nynex Science & Technology
References:  <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 18:59:43 GMT
Lines: 7

[X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X]
[X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X]
[X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X]
[X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X]
[X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X]

'nuf said ???
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!agate!agate!usenet
From: [e-mail] (William E. Grosso)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: John_-_Winston Poll : yes [X]
Date: 27 Jul 1992 19:54:03 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: moica.berkeley.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail]
(Peter Colonel) writes:
> [X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X]
> [X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X]
> [X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X]
> [X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X]
> [X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X][X]
>
> 'nuf said ???

No. Not enough said. you negelected to mention which box you
were x'ing. All we know is that you have a very strongly held
opinion. Personally, I hope you're x'ing the apathetic box
(for esthetic reasons).


Bill Grosso



Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!darwin.sura.net!mips!sdd.hp.com!usc!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!bronze!indyvax.iupui.edu!harvey
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: zeta reticuli
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 62
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: indyvax.iupui.edu
Organization: Indiana University
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Jul 92 15:04:51 -0500

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Robert R. Mitchell (SEAS admin)) writes:
>> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>>To heck with how the Pleiadians ships work or how fast they go. HOW DID
>>>THEY EVOLVE SO DARN FAST?  The Pleiades are bright young stars still
>>>within their nebular cocoon.  They are along the order of millions of
>>>years old.  It took life on Earth more than 4 billion years to evolve
>>>to the point where it could walk upright, talk, and dream silly dreams.
>>>Are the Pleidians child prodigies?  Btw the first prokaryotes didn't
>>>evolve here until a billion years or so after the formation of Earth.
>>>Thomas Freebairn
>>
>> I think the New Age Crystalbabble party line is that the
>> Pleiadians were seeded by an elder race; they did not originally
>> evolve in what is now their home system.
>
>  Yes?

It's still a pretty weak explanation.  Oxygen-breathing animals would have
a difficult time surviving on an earth-like planet before the evolution of
_plants_, let alone prokaryotes.  In fact, before the evolution of plants,
the earth wasn't really very `earth-like' at all, if by that term you mean
like it is now...

Ask yourself: Why is earth's atmosphere 21% oxygen?  How long did it take to
get this way (it wasn't always, you know).  How does soil cover over bedrock
form?  How could these `seeded' Pleiadians have survived before there was
any bacterial slime to be licked off of rocks, let alone oxygen to breath?

>
>>As for the Pleiades,
>> how far away are they?  You would want to add their distance to
>> their apparent age (as viewed from Earth) to get the actual age,
>> right?
>
> No.

Yes.  But if the distance in light years is very small compared to their age,
this correction will be negligable.

>> Also, if evolution is driven in part by genetic mutation caused
>> by stellar radiation, can we expect it to "happen faster" in
>> binary or trinary star systems?
>
> Yes and no.

But you're talking orders of magnitude faster.  And even if mutations happen
faster, if there is no selection pressure, how is this going to speed up
evolution?  What about selection pressures that are going to take on the
order of a billion years or so to develop regardless of the mutation rate,
like anaerobic bacteria producing enough O2 to make a big enough niche for
aerobic bacteria to florish?

>> Have I convinced everyone that a liberal arts education
>> is truly worthless? :-)>
>
> Maybe.
>
> Thomas Freebairn
--
James Harvey
[e-mail]  uucp: iugate!harvey  bitnet: harvey@indyvax
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: John_Winston-Complete incineration
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 13:13:24 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Kevin:
Please don't get excited.
John Winsnton.
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: John_-_Winston Poll
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 13:16:14 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 2

Dear Rod: I read your suggestion.
John Winston.
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Kill file
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 13:21:10 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

Dear Kevin:
After thinking about my last advice to you I take it all back it won't
work.
John Winston.
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!thad
From: [e-mail] (Thad P Floryan)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ships to India or Pakistan
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 13:24:35 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 23

In article <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] (Jane Hennig) writes:

| Peter and Mario want to travel to India.
|
| Who knows from which European harbors are going ships
| to India or Pakistan?
|
| Please, when you can help me, write as soon as possible.
|
| Thank you!!!
|
|
| Fine, holidays for all nn-readers. :-)

Do "Grays" carry green cards?  Have visas?  :-)

Anyone still believe "alt.alien.visitors" shouldn't be renamed, please raise
your hand.  "alt.ufos.*" would reduce some of the non-pertinent traffic that
appears in this newsgroup, but I'm not saying that's the best choice for a
new name.

Thad Floryan [ [e-mail] ]
Xref: news.uiowa.edu talk.religion.newage:10976 alt.alien.visitors:7621 sci.skeptic:27964
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mnemosyne.cs.du.edu!nyx!arsmith
From: [e-mail] (Alan Smith)
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
    of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
    control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Sender: [e-mail] (netnews admin account)
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 20:15:45 GMT
Lines: 15

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Dan: I wish that I had you with me yesterday down in Souther Calif.
>on a 5 miles hike into some American Indian ancient country. That would
>have taken some of the starch out of your levies. We were in an area
>where people have sightings of what the indians call Thunderbird and
>what scientist call the pterodactyl.
>John Winston.


You're thinking of Condors, big vulturelike birds.  Pteradactyls were more
like flying squirrels than birds, although I suppose they could make use
of thermals to gain altitude.

Big Al.  Hey, what did Pteradactyls eat, anyway?  Any kind-hearted
palentologists out there?
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!thad
From: [e-mail] (Thad P Floryan)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: John_-_Winston Poll
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 13:34:53 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 29

In article <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] (Rod Beckwith) writes:

| Mabye John will get the MESSAGE this way?!?! All those in favor of dear old
| John_-_Winston sending e-mail instead of posting his responses to the world
| at large , please post a RE: to this message to let the post happy
| [...]

While I agree there's far too much "personal banter" occuring, give the guy
a break.

The Portal interface is NOT like anything you may have seen before; it's sort
of a cross between "Notes" (as on HP-UX systems) and a DOS-type BBS.

Believe me, it's all too easy to accidentally send an empty article or not
understand how to move to the next screen.  And the email interface appears
identical to the Usenet, Clarinet, Internet interfaces and it's very easy
to become confused even for those who ARE "computer-literate."

I've sent email to John and to "[e-mail]" (Customer Services) asking
to get John setup with a "Portal Partner" or "Portal Pals" (whatever they
call it) to help him acclimate to the system.

I've used Portal for over 5 years (since it was a local call, and The WELL
(used to) charge by the minute) because it was a flat-rate service, but even
I occasionally get "caught" in the interface (even though I've put most of
Portal's commands on function keys with my terminal emulator).

Thad Floryan [ [e-mail] ]
Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7623 sci.skeptic:27965
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: astral travel
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 13:43:18 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

Dear Press: You made the statement, John you would be God. This statement
that you made in jest is actually the ultimate goal of enlightment and
that is to be at one with God. Then you would know everything.
John Winston.
Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7624 sci.skeptic:27969
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: astral travel
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 14:05:07 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 11

Hi there BSKAGL: I just got back from the ruins of the 30,000 year old
city in Southern Calif. Now back to the discussion of Astral Projection.
The person called T. Lobsang Rampa (the T. stands for tuesday because they
always put down the day a person is born on to identify them astrologically
so they can know more about a person, and I find that extremely funny) did
talk in his book The Rampa Story starting on page 22 about astral projection
and I will now paraphrase some of that information.---His quide taught
astral travel so well that he could do it better than walking.  Almost
anyone of the religions of the world believes in the soul or "other body".
Actually there are several bodies or sheaths but the exact number does
not concern us here. We know that it is possible-----John Winston.--
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: astral travel
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 14:17:17 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 9

--lay aside the ordinary physical body (the one that supports the clothes)
and travel anywhere, even beyond the Earth, in the astral form. Everyone
does astral travelling, even the ones who think it is "all nonsense"!
It is as natural as breathing. Most people do it when they are asleep
and so, unless they are trained, they know nothing about it. Many times
dieing people visit alive people by astral travel to tell them they have
past over and to let their friend know that they now are OK on the other
side. That's all for now.
John Winston.
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: A question for John_-_Winston
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 14:26:17 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 7

Dear tffreeb:
Well someone finally took pity on little ole me and told me who Hassan
B. Multu is and he turns out to be a person who does a lot of posting
in Europe. He talks a lot about the Armeanian killing a bunch of Turks
not too many years ago. I can say without a hesitation that I'm not
him.
John Winston.
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: alt.alien.visitors crossposts
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 14:36:21 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 5

Dear Kevin:
I have a question.  When are you going to run out of questions. The
teachings of the people of the East are not foolishness to some
people.  I believe they have a lot to teach us if we will but listen.
John Winston.
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Artsy MIBs and Alien MIBs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 14:40:45 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 3

Dear Steve:
I believe that anything is possible.
John Winston.
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFO books
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 15:06:30 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 10

Dear Elaine: You ask about UFO book so here I go.  I'll try to give
you my opinion on the subject.  The first book is Stranger At The
Pentagon by Frank Stranges.  Fate Magazine just got through writing
an article tearing this book apart. I figure if Fate has that much to
say about it then it's got to be good. I read it many years ago and it
talks about a person from Venus called Valient Thor who contacted Ike I.
(our president) and tried to give us some help. We didn't take his
help but he did give us 2 or more UFOs to show good faith. You can get
the book at Inner Light Publications, P.O. Box 753, New Prunswick,
NJ 08903 USA.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!The-Star.honeywell.com!umn.edu!lynx!lacerta.unm.edu!cary
From: [e-mail] (Ithlial the Archer)
Subject: Re: John_-_Winston Poll
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 22:47:41 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
References: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: Get a clue numb----.
Lines: 30

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith) writes:
>
>The choices are:

yes [X] John,please refrain from posting what should be email responses to
this newsgroup.

>no [ ] John, continue with your irratating ways. We love to read all of
>your responses to questions & flames that we have never seen.
>
>the old moronic no opinion [ ] What a stupid idea in the first place,who
>cares about someone with no opinion.
>
Ithlial



JOHN!

USE YOUR GODDAM

EEEEEEEE         M       M        A        IIIIIII  L           !
 E               MM     MM       A A          I     L           !
  E              M M   M M      A   A         I     L           !
   EEEE  ======= M  M M  M     A     A        I     L           !
  E              M   M   M    AAAAAAAAA       I     L           !
 E               M       M   A         A      I     L           !
EEEEEEEE         M       M  A           A  IIIIIII  LLLLLLL     o


Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!news.sei.cmu.edu!fs7.ece.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!rd1s+
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 16:47:04 -0400
From: "Robert H. P. Dunn" <[e-mail]>
Subject: aliens from [e-mail]
Lines: 29

From sigkids Mon Jul 27 15:38:19 1992
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 15:38:19 -0500
From: Siggraph'92 SIGKids <[e-mail]>
To: netnews.alt.alien.visitors
Subject: their supiriority over us
Cc: [e-mail]

We definately know that aliens are definately superior compared
to us, because they haven't contacted us yet.  This is known
because I was an alien in a past life.  My story starts several
years ago... Me and Zargot were taking an evening stroll when
when an earthling satelite crushed him (sort of like the wiked witch
of the West or east or whatever which one it was. you probably know)
Anyway... I was covered in alien blood(which is made of a very high
corrosive) which severely damaged me.  Also it took our homes amay
(by the way we were exactly 20000 times smaller than those demented
earthlings, so to them our homes looked like grains of dust.  So us
Zarlgonians refer to you extremely massive and inferior earthlings
the "Ones who crushed our homes and smashed our peoples into micro-
scopic bits of dying organic matter, so we tend to stay away from them.
Another reason we are superior is that we control ourselve from eating
toxic waste such as... twinkies, ding dongs, choco bliss, pepsi, and
pizza, raw sea animals with no natural external coverings (shells, etc...)
Also you destroy new life forms and old ones especially your enviroment.
I could go on for many pages, but I am being called by my leader...not
this is "the one who experienced gory things and who had to suffer
because he turned into something terrible after his battery ran out...
......an earthling!!!"
Ari @ sigkids Chicago
Xref: news.uiowa.edu talk.religion.newage:10981 alt.alien.visitors:7632 sci.skeptic:27972
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!hoptoad!amdcad!sono!lawson
From: [e-mail] (Drew Lawson)
Subject: Re: The Prime Directive
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Drew Lawson)
Organization: ACUSON, Mountain View, CA
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 20:48:37 GMT
Lines: 11

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Fellow Earthlings: Here it is Friday morning 0607 and things look
>pretty good.  If  it's God's will and if the creek doesn't rise
>I hope to go down to Southern Calif. and go on a tour of  the ruins
>of a 30,000 year old city.

No, John.  Los Angeles only _seems_ 30,000 years old.

--
Drew Lawson                      If you're not part of the solution,
[e-mail]                you're part of the precipitate
Xref: news.uiowa.edu talk.religion.newage:10982 alt.alien.visitors:7633 sci.skeptic:27973
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 16:49:59 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 11

Dear Future Astral Astronauts: In my last report of the Astral Convoy
I made a few slight mistakes. The person called K. should have been J.
J. lived in Penn. USA rather than Hawaii. E. forgot to go on the journey
but his higher self took off on time and did make contact with J.  I
don't know what J. looks like but I think I got a picture in my mind
of E.  Shannon passed out according to the information I got from E. and
wasn't aware of anything. We don't know whether Shannon is a girl or boy
but we don't want to ask because Shannon will think we're trying to cheat.
Kumar turned out to be in the USA rather than Germany but he never could
get his mind altogether. So we have a little room for improvement. We have
a person from England named Linda that wants in on some of this action. JW
Xref: news.uiowa.edu talk.religion.newage:10983 alt.alien.visitors:7634 sci.skeptic:27974
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 16:59:04 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 6

Part 2. J. has two friends that want to get in on this. Their names are
Allen and Bill.  Some people may wonder how I'm going to get from one
place to another so fast. This Astral Convoy will be traveling at the
speed of thought.  I'll need 8 seconds or less for each person visited.
That's all for now.
John Winston.
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ley Lines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 17:15:23 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 11

This is the start of Part 3 of the information from Shaari about ley lines.
----The research by the Star Command is two fold, the first is {they are}
checking to see how the Earth's surface, how the surfacre is being affected
by the deterioration of the ozone, how much reaiaation is in there, how
much negative vibratory frequencies are in there, how many negative
thought forms are around in there. {This is} very much an assessment and
analyses of how the Earth's surface is beisng impacted by her {exterior}
enviorment. Pollution, what's happening is that it {comes} from the
negativity and sometimes the {adverse} thought forms that are laying
close to the ground. The radiation and pollution are all being monitored
and checked.  At the same time while they are checking that, they---JW
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ley Linesj
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 17:28:49 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 11

---are infusing the qualities of color, light, {time} and frequency into
those connection points of the ley lines {crossover, See,} That's
why some of the circular configurations {will just} be a circle, others
will {seem} more elaborate, like two barbells and two parallel lines,
you know that they look like two {little} lines that are, the purpose
of which even goes further {that}, each one of these are access points
for the earth's conciousness to also exchange with her {conciousness}
and her higher {range}.  This is what your have, high conciousness. This
is what you have {conciousness} with God, but guess what, the earth does
too, and it's not the Star Command.  The Star Command is just assisting,
a service department, but she also has the conciousness of God and ---
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ley Linesj
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 17:35:56 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 7

--the Goddess and other planets and other constellations that she speaks
to, so when you are looking at these two barbells which are symbolical
of these particular configurations and you have two parallel lines that
are very close together and usually on either side of these circles,
these little parallel lines indicate the {specific} transformation doorways
for the earth and her conciousness. End of Part 3.
John Winston.
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!dtix!darwin.sura.net!jvnc.net!yale.edu!yale!gumby!destroyer!caen!umeecs!umn.edu!csus.edu!netcomsv!mork!payner
From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ships to India or Pakistan
Message-ID: <k![e-mail]>
Date: 27 Jul 92 23:50:32 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 34

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Thad P Floryan) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>
>[e-mail] (Jane Hennig) writes:
>
>| Peter and Mario want to travel to India.
>|
>| Who knows from which European harbors are going ships
>| to India or Pakistan?
>|
>| Please, when you can help me, write as soon as possible.
>|
>| Thank you!!!
>|
>|
>| Fine, holidays for all nn-readers. :-)
>
>Do "Grays" carry green cards?  Have visas?  :-)
>
>Anyone still believe "alt.alien.visitors" shouldn't be renamed, please raise
>your hand.  "alt.ufos.*" would reduce some of the non-pertinent traffic that
>appears in this newsgroup, but I'm not saying that's the best choice for a
>new name.

Sorry Thad, it had been demonstrated many times right here that when
many say UFO, they mean alien spaceship. Unless the new groups generated
more traffic (which is possible), it would diffuse it out a bit. Poor
John is having trouble keeping up now.

>Thad Floryan [ [e-mail] ]

Rich


[e-mail]
Xref: news.uiowa.edu sci.skeptic:27978 alt.alien.visitors:7639
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!rosevax!aquarius!grante
From: [e-mail] (Grant Edwards)
Subject: Re: Human Parthenogenesis? (Was: Questions from an interested p
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News administrator)
Nntp-Posting-Host: aquarius
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Grant Edwards)
Organization: Rosemount, Inc.
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 23:57:23 GMT
Lines: 18

[e-mail] writes:
: Dear Grant: I will have to admit that a good deal of what the pulp
: magazines contain is just something to sell papers but sometime they contain
: pearls of wisdom that do come through. I believe that very little can
: be learned by looking at the headlines of the tabloids as one goes
: through the checkout line.
: John Winston.

I don't just read the headlines in the WWN.  We have a subscription at
work (paid for with personal money).  The fun part is trying to pick out
the articles that are true (albeit slightly sensationalized) vs the ones
that are complete fabrications.

--
Grant Edwards                                 |Yow!  I'm a GENIUS!  I want
Rosemount Inc.                                |to dispute sentence structure
                                              |with SUSAN SONTAG!!
[e-mail]                 |
Xref: news.uiowa.edu talk.religion.newage:10984 alt.alien.visitors:7640 sci.skeptic:27982
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!caen!uwm.edu!news.bbn.com!ingria
From: [e-mail] (Bob Ingria)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence
Date: 28 Jul 1992 02:27:05 GMT
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
NNTP-Posting-Host: bbn.com
In-reply-to: [e-mail]'s message of 27 Jul 92 23:59:04 GMT

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

   Part 2. J. has two friends that want to get in on this. Their names are
   Allen and Bill.  Some people may wonder how I'm going to get from one
   place to another so fast. This Astral Convoy will be traveling at the
   speed of thought.

Using what stimulants or depressants?

-30-
Bob

``Oh, we've got a great big convoy...''
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!usc!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!bronze!indyvax.iupui.edu!tffreeba
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: zeta reticuli
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 56
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: indyvax.iupui.edu
Organization: Indiana University
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Jul 92 21:50:24 -0500

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Robert R. Mitchell (SEAS admin)) writes:
>> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>>To heck with how the Pleiadians ships work or how fast they go. HOW DID
>>>THEY EVOLVE SO DARN FAST?  The Pleiades are bright young stars still
>>>within their nebular cocoon.  They are along the order of millions of
>>>years old.  It took life on Earth more than 4 billion years to evolve
>>>to the point where it could walk upright, talk, and dream silly dreams.
>>>Are the Pleidians child prodigies?  Btw the first prokaryotes didn't
>>>evolve here until a billion years or so after the formation of Earth.
>>>Thomas Freebairn
>>
>> I think the New Age Crystalbabble party line is that the
>> Pleiadians were seeded by an elder race; they did not originally
>> evolve in what is now their home system.
>

>  Yes?
Okay, okay.  I was sleepy and being a smartass when I wrote this.  The "yes"
was because it seemed so natural that the true believers would come up with
such an answer.  It smacks of scientific creationism.

>
>>As for the Pleiades,
>> how far away are they?  You would want to add their distance to
>> their apparent age (as viewed from Earth) to get the actual age,
>> right?
>
> No.
"No" because, as others have pointed out, the Pleiades are close enough
that adding light travel time would be negligable in an evolutionary
context.
>
>> Also, if evolution is driven in part by genetic mutation caused
>> by stellar radiation, can we expect it to "happen faster" in
>> binary or trinary star systems?
>
> Yes and no.
"Yes and no" because while evolution may be somewhat accellerated in
such circumstances there are also problems with getting life started
at all in multiple systems.  There was a good article in Astronomy
magazine sometime in the last year on this subject.  It had to do
with the likelyhood of life in the alpha centauri system.  If anybody
is too lazy to look it up themselves, e-mail me and I will slog through
my old issues and find out which one it is in.  (See other INDYVAX posting
on zeta reticuli for other good reasons no.)
>
>> Have I convinced everyone that a liberal arts education
>> is truly worthless? :-)>
>
> Maybe.
Total smartass stuff here.  I can't talk, I have the same sort of education
(but then again, I _am_ pretty sure mine is worthless.)  Sorry for not
being more forthcoming.  No dog intended.
>
> Thomas Freebairn
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!ohstpy!vancleef
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: A question for John_-_Winston
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 27 Jul 92 22:28:36 EDT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 17

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> Dear tffreeb:
> Well someone finally took pity on little ole me and told me who Hassan
> B. Multu is and he turns out to be a person who does a lot of posting
> in Europe. He talks a lot about the Armeanian killing a bunch of Turks
> not too many years ago. I can say without a hesitation that I'm not
> him.
> John Winston.

What the hell does this have to do with "alt.alien.visitors"???

Please don't use net.news for personal messages. It's obnoxious and
a waste of bandwidth.

-Garrett


Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!olivea!bu.edu!dartvax!mars.caps.maine.edu!maine.maine.edu!umasp
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Is Bigfoot a Visitor?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Jul 92 01:38:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Maine System
Lines: 4

The idea was bounced around once in an episode of 'The Six Million Dollar Man'.

Bigfoot ended up being a nice guy, and even made a second appearance on a
later episode.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!munnari.oz.au!bruce.cs.monash.edu.au!monu6!vx24.cc.monash.edu.au!edc432ysys
From: [e-mail]
Subject: ALIEN GREETZ
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 6
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet system)
Organization: Computer Centre, Monash University, Australia
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 02:40:19 GMT

Saalome gam naan ben uurda gan neeber asaal hesporoona

HI ya!

    If you know what this means please contact me !

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!munnari.oz.au!metro!seagoon.newcastle.edu.au!cc.newcastle.edu.au!c9109149
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: zeta reticuli
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 15
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 01:24:39 GMT

Here's a way that zeta reticuli system was seeded by aliens.

    First they had to make the planet survivable for the bipedal
humanoid zete boys. To do this they 'terraformed' the planet step by step.
First they formed basic stuff like water then dropped in some algae tablets
and pretty soon the waters teemed with oxygen creating lifeforms.
A few gene manipuluations later and a basic ecosystem developed. Then it was
time to build up to the soil and mass carboniferous stuff that would support
the zetis. For this, large (huge) amounts of carbon based organic material
had to be shifted, complex vitamins and organic molecular shapes had to be
mass produced so they sent in the DINOSAURS, those massive organic machines.
In no time at all, wham! Time for more useful , sentient, emotional life
to be sent in to play and so the zeti fellows grabbed a few thousand years
to get to grips with life as they new it, made contact and now they are
spying on us.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!att!cbnewse!cbnewsd!press2
From: [e-mail] (barry.o.olson)
Subject: Re: John_-_Winston Poll
Organization: AT&T
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 04:40:50 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: Get a clue numb----.
Lines: 16

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith) writes:
> Hello any & everybody,
>
> no [ ] John, continue with your irratating ways. We love to read all of
> your responses to questions & flames that we have never seen.

i'll take this one, and hmmm
>
> the old moronic no opinion [ ] What a stupid idea in the first place,who
> cares about someone with no opinion.
>
What the hell, this one two.

As a small potatwos poster to this star group, i find him
quite knowledgable in the art of spirit world news with venus
people and other odd groups.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!darwin.sura.net!udel!sbcs.sunysb.edu!csws17.ic.sunysb.edu!dtiberio
From: [e-mail] (David Tiberio)
Subject: Re: John_-_Winston Poll
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: Get a clue numb----.
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet poster)
Nntp-Posting-Host: csws17.ic.sunysb.edu
Organization: State University of New York at Stony Brook
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 05:15:12 GMT
Lines: 29

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith) writes:
>Hello any & everybody,
>
>Mabye John will get the MESSAGE this way?!?! All those in favor of dear old
>John_-_Winston sending e-mail instead of posting his responses to the world
>at large , please post a RE: to this message to let the post happy
>bandwidth burner
>know we are all growing weary of his blatent disregard for information
>dissemination in an organized & efficient manner.The next step of course
>would be to contact the NETWORK POLICE to give him a keyboard enema.
>
>Rod Beckwith     |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

    I suggest he resort to esp-mail to save on bandwidth.

    By the way, how do you put a person in a KILL file? I was able to
kill subjects in my kill file, but a certain person's posts keep appearing.
Thanks a meg.

--
      //   David Tiberio  SUNY Stony Brook 516-473-5156 AMIGA  DDD-MEN
     //  bounce-resistant:    [e-mail]
   \X/        Perot for President 1-516-399-2259 Long Island, New York

     PPPP  EEEEE RRRR   OOO  TTTTT    IIIII N   N      999   6666
    P   P E     R   R O   O   T        I   NN  N     9   9 6
    PPPP  EEEE  RRRR  O   O   T        I   N N N      9999 6666
     P     E     R R   O   O   T        I   N  NN         9 6   6
     P     EEEEE R  R   OOO    T      IIIII N   N     9999   666
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!sdd.hp.com!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!news.cso.uiuc.edu!uxc.cso.uiuc.edu!ken
From: [e-mail] (Ken Primer)
Subject: Elvis???
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Net Noise owner)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 02:54:22 GMT
Lines: 8


    So what's this deal about Elvis on Mars? Is he an alien or has he been abducted?

--
  RUMORS OF MY DEMISE ARE IN FACT...
ARE NOT EXAGGERATED! I AM IN FACT DEAD.        [e-mail]

                        <<FNORD>>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!usc!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!ucselx!newshub.sdsu.edu!voyager4!melissa
From: [e-mail] (Melissa )
Subject: Re: Erich Von Daniken
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: voyager4.sdsu.edu
Organization: San Diego State University, College of Sciences
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 07:46:53 GMT
Lines: 56

[e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew) writes:
: Hi,
:
:     [e-mail] (Melissa )
:     I was just wondering if anyone out there took seriously
:     the theories and claims of famed author and traveler Erich Von
:     Daniken.
:
: ... you may want to look for Clifford Wilson's books "Crash go the
: Chariots" and "The Chariots still Crash", for further information on
: EVD's evidence for his thesis.  The sum of the matter is that EVD's
: supporting "evidence" is not what he says it is.  Here's the
: publication information from the Rutgers library catalog:
:
:
:    AUTHOR Wilson, Clifford A
:     TITLE Crash go the chariots / Clifford Wilson.
:   EDITION Rev. and enl.
: PUBLISHER San Diego, Calif. : Master Books, 1976.
:
:
:    AUTHOR Wilson, Clifford A.
:     TITLE The chariots still crash / Clifford Wilson.
: PUBLISHER New York : New American Library, [1976] c1975.
:
:
: ... Read those for a another viewpoint on things.  I always had
: problems with some of EVD's evidence; saying that the Pyramids were
: unbuildable without help ignores the amazing engineering genius that
: humans (even ancient humans) posses.  Its an interesting thesis, of
: course, but in my opinion EVD's evidence should not be taken at face
: value.  (Don't forget the "Gold of the Gods" fiasco.)
:
: Charles

(Please send mail to [e-mail], not melissa.)

Hi, this is Mike again.
    I am familiar with the fact that "Gold of the Gods" was supposedly
written while he was in a jail cell, but I don't recall any real "fiasco".
    Was this in reference to the so-called depictions of man and
dinosaur living at the same time? I do remember a Walter Cronkite special
about Von Daniken, where the main theme of the program was the journalist
going out and finding natives of the region who claimed to have actually
carved those representations onto the stones.
    Or was the "fiasco" about the "miles of tunnels" which Mr. Moricz
discovered and kept such a secret? I did find it strange that, if these
tunnels did exist, why wasn't there more archeological work done to bring
these facts to the public eye?
    The book was originally published in 1972, I believe, but I have
never heard again of Juan Moricz and his "Tunnels of Gold".

                            Michael Whittington
                            [e-mail]

: Charles
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!darwin.sura.net!mips!sdd.hp.com!usc!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!ucselx!newshub.sdsu.edu!voyager4!melissa
From: [e-mail] (Melissa )
Subject: The Truth About.........
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: voyager4.sdsu.edu
Organization: San Diego State University, College of Sciences
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 08:20:16 GMT
Lines: 27

(Please send mail to [e-mail], not melissa.)

    Hi, this is Mike again.
I have recently aqquired a copy of a very interesting video, and would
like to find out if anyone else has seen it and what they thought.
    The name of the video is "The Truth About UFO'S and ET'S".
It is a video taped session of what I can only refer to as a "seminar"
of some sort. From what I've been able to learn about the author, he
travels around to different colleges and such giving these lectures
on Extraterrestrials(sp?) and the paranormal.
    I found it to be a rather engaging 90 min. of mostly slide
projection and talking. At the end of the video, he brings in his wife,
who claims tbe connected somehow with a superior race of beings
who are "seeding" the Earth, or something. (I'll have to watch it again).
    Anyway, I picked this tape up at Wal-Mart for $4.00, and I think
I got my money's worth The authors name is Brad Steiger. I think he's
had a few books out along the lines of Erich Von Daniken and such.
    If you would like to find out more:
    The Truth About UFO'S and ET'S
    GOODTIMES HOME VIDEO
    401 5th Ave.
    New York, NY
    10016
The video is copyright 1982 Atlan Productions, if that helps any.

                        Michael Whittington
                        [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!ira.uka.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!stepsun.uni-kl.de!sun.rhrk.uni-kl.de!efes.physik.uni-kl.de!kring
From: [e-mail] (Thomas Kettenring)
Subject: Re: ***Good_Luck_for_Your_Astral_Convey***
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: FB Physik, Universitaet Kaiserslautern, Germany
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <aero.711995750@neptune>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 16:06:07 GMT
Lines: 21

In article <aero.711995750@neptune>, [e-mail] (Aero Student Account) writes:
>[e-mail] writes:
>
>>Dear John H.
>>Haven't any time but will comment on this later.
>>John Winston.
>
>Would someone please teach Mr. Winston about the subtleties and
>nuances which distinguish "followup" from "reply?"

I did that some weeks ago, and he answered thanking me but continued posting
instead of mailing, so I put him in my KILL file.  That works much better.

--
--------------thomas kettenring, 2 dan, kaiserslautern, germany---------------
Do you ask a Napoleon why it has to be Moscow, of all places?  Do you ask a
Mondrian why one has to paint only in the rectangularly framed primary colours
Red, Blue, and Yellow?  Ah, how all questions are ruined in view of a persuas-
ively recited system of madness! And is there a mortar keeping those systems
together firmer than real or supposed enemies?  -  Robert Gernhardt

Xref: news.uiowa.edu talk.religion.newage:10992 alt.alien.visitors:7652 sci.skeptic:27987
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: The Prime Directive
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 06:26:26 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 11

Dear Drew and Bob: I'm really not going to say anything to you two
wonderful gentlemen because I got about 17 bits of E-mail from a person
of the female gender commanding me not to respond to people in a personal
manner. That's supposed to be done through E=mail.
  In accordance with the suggestion that was given to me by Shannon
I did send Him-Her a picture of myself through the mail for identification
purposes only (just in case I come by in astral projection mode). This
picture was sent through the regular post office mail.
  On yes Drew and Bob.  Please don't hold your breath till I respond to
you by E-mail.
  Cheers and all that old stuff.  John Winston.
From: [e-mail] (Alastair Waddell)
Sender: [e-mail]
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!munnari.oz.au!jabaru.cec.edu.au!csource!acsnet
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Palladians
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 00:34:00 +1000
Lines: 10

Hello All!

I have only heard this name (verbally) so the spelling may be incorrect.

So who are the Palladians? (not to be confused with "Palladium")

Alastair

 * Origin: The Man in the Iron Mask (3:681/853.6)

Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!europa.asd.contel.com!darwin.sura.net!wupost!waikato.ac.nz!aukuni.ac.nz!kcbbs!kc
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Spaceships Beyond Our Ken(was Re:Elapsed
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (Robert Sutton)
Date: 28 Jul 92 09:14:27 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Kappa Crucis Unix BBS, Auckland, New Zealand
Lines: 9

[e-mail] (Jeff Epler) 20 JUL 92 20:56:21 GMT types-
>Say (this is alt.alien.visitors) has this technology been captured
>from aliens(of tau ceti) that the CIA has hjad inside the Pentagon
>for 73 years.

If they are aliens from the planet tau ceti orbiting the star Tau Ceti
they should have over 60 years to recover it.
Anyway why tau ceti & why 73 years???..

Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!usc!rpi!bu.edu!cvbnet!root
From: [e-mail] (cvbnet)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: John_-_Winston Poll
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Jul 92 15:34:31 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 5



 yes [X] John,please refrain from posting what should be email responses to
 this newsgroup.

Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!usc!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!igor.rutgers.edu!dropout.rutgers.edu!mcgrew
From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Erich Von Daniken
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Jul 92 14:56:12 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 11


    [e-mail] writes (sorry about that, Mike):

    ..."Gold of the Gods"...but I don't recall any real "fiasco".

.... well, I was actually referring to his interview in "Playboy" in
which he (after evading vigorously) admitted that he had not actually
been in the cave, or even been near where he said it was (even though
he claimed in the book, as I recall, to have seen the gold).

Charles "I buy for the articles" McGrew
Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7657 alt.conspiracy:17185
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!usc!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!destroyer!caen!kuhub.cc.ukans.edu!parsifal.umkc.edu!UMSLVMA.UMSL.EDU!SKTHOMA
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: steamshovel
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (Kenn Thomas)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 14:11:27 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (Parsifal Administration)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: UM ST. LOUIS
Lines: 27

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gary Stollman) writes:

>SEE ? I am everywhere ! It's impossible to implant me with one of your
>crystals..

We did it last week, glasshead, when you were in the shower playing with
yourself.

--
"I mean the clearing out of the Jews, the extermination of the Jewish race.
It's one of those things it is easy to talk about -- `The Jewish race is being
exterminated,' says one party member, `that's quite clear, it's in our program
-- elimination of the Jews, and we're doing it, exterminating them.'"[Himmler]
I'm trying to post to this list but the set up here is very confusing. Please
forgive the intrusion.  My main purpose is to contact potentials readers of and
 writers for Steamshovel Press, a conpsiracy theory magazine.  The current issu
e of SP contains interviews with Mark Lane, Kerry Thornley, Dick Gregory and Ji
m Marrs; an article on AIDS cures; a "saucer section" with UFO speculations; cr
iticism of Noam Chomsky.  Previous issues have had material on the CIA's involv
ement with Abbie Hoffman's death; the Pentagon origins of AIDS; stuff on Wilhel
m Reich.  The next issue, under production, includes an article on Reich's FOIA
file; an overview of INSLAW and the Danny Casaloro case; something on the Shrou
d of Turin; an interview with Deborah Davis, who wrote Katharine The Great, abo
out Mary Pinchot Meyer, Bob Woodward and Nixon, etc. Anyway, we're always looki
ng for contributions from the conspiracy minded for future issues and this post
,if I can get this to work right, is just such an appeal.  Contact me at this e
-mail address or at 5927 Kingsbury, St. Louis, MO 63112.
Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7658 sci.skeptic:27992
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!ncar!noao!amethyst!organpipe.uug.arizona.edu!air.atmo.arizona.edu!briggs
From: [e-mail] (William Briggs)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: astral travel
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Jul 92 15:12:13 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Department of Atmospheric Physics
Lines: 7


     Hate to chime in on an already tedious subject; but, Martin Gardner has an
excellent article on old "third-eye" Rampa in his book on the New Age.
Naturally, I have forgotten the exact title, but it's by Prometheus books,
printed on fine acid-free paper.

     mb
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ucla-cs!ucla-se!seashell!mitch
From: [e-mail] (Robert R. Mitchell (SEAS admin))
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: John_-_Winston Poll
Keywords: Get a clue numb----.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Jul 92 16:04:22 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Cyberdyne Systems
Lines: 17

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith) writes:
>
>The choices are:
>
no [X] John, continue with your irratating ways. We love to read all of
your responses to questions & flames that we have never seen.






--
DISCLAIMER:                                              | Bob Mitchell
"Don't blame _me_, _I_ didn't do it!" --Krusty the Clown | [e-mail]
"Ididn'tdoitnobodysawmeyoucan'tproveanything!" --Bartman | DOD#[classified]
"Computers are ruining this country." --Al Bundy         | 1987 VT700c
Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7660 alt.conspiracy:17187
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!walter!phelix!mdl
From: mdl@phelixsalt (Michael Lynch)
Subject: Re: steamshovel
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: phelix.bellcore.com
Reply-To: mdl@phelixsalt (Michael Lynch)
Organization: Bellcore
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 16:03:10 GMT
Lines: 40

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Kenn Thomas) writes:
|> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gary Stollman) writes:
|>
|> >SEE ? I am everywhere ! It's impossible to implant me with one of your
|> >crystals..
|>
|> We did it last week, glasshead, when you were in the shower playing with
|> yourself.
|>
|> --
|> "I mean the clearing out of the Jews, the extermination of the Jewish race.
|> It's one of those things it is easy to talk about -- `The Jewish race is being
|> exterminated,' says one party member, `that's quite clear, it's in our program
|> -- elimination of the Jews, and we're doing it, exterminating them.'"[Himmler]
|> I'm trying to post to this list but the set up here is very confusing. Please
|> forgive the intrusion.  My main purpose is to contact potentials readers of and
|>  writers for Steamshovel Press, a conpsiracy theory magazine.  The current issu
|> e of SP contains interviews with Mark Lane, Kerry Thornley, Dick Gregory and Ji
|> m Marrs; an article on AIDS cures; a "saucer section" with UFO speculations; cr
|> iticism of Noam Chomsky.  Previous issues have had material on the CIA's involv
|> ement with Abbie Hoffman's death; the Pentagon origins of AIDS; stuff on Wilhel
|> m Reich.  The next issue, under production, includes an article on Reich's FOIA
|> file; an overview of INSLAW and the Danny Casaloro case; something on the Shrou
|> d of Turin; an interview with Deborah Davis, who wrote Katharine The Great, abo
|> out Mary Pinchot Meyer, Bob Woodward and Nixon, etc. Anyway, we're always looki
|> ng for contributions from the conspiracy minded for future issues and this post
|> ,if I can get this to work right, is just such an appeal.  Contact me at this e
|> -mail address or at 5927 Kingsbury, St. Louis, MO 63112.


I'm not sure what this is -- a very long .sig, or a request of some sort.
However, I do have a subject for the next issue of Steamshovel Press.  I
saw it on a bumper sticker the other day.

Humpty Dumpty was pushed.


We really should know more about this.  Was there CIA involvement, perhaps?

Mike Lynch
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!balrog!ctron.com
From: [e-mail] (Larry Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ley Lines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Jul 92 20:05:15 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Cabletron Systems, Inc.
Lines: 30
Nntp-Posting-Host: glinda

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:

John, there are many very weird groups that have many very weird people who
post to them, and there are no groups at all that are weirder than alt.alien.
visitors, nor do people come any weirder than some that post in this group.

But, John, you are abusing the privilege, and you may be the first person I
have ever heard of who might really profit from professional help or a good
long talk with the clergyperson of your choice.  I certainly don't think you
can get much worse.

If you refuse, as I expect you will, you should at least learn that:

A) Usenet does not guarantee your posts will arrive in the order in which they
   were sent.
B) Usenet does not guarantee your posts will sort in order or even together, if
   they, perchance, arrive on the same day.
C) Usenet does not require you break up all your posts into five-line snippets,
   you can just post your message and be done with it.
D) You should run right out and read "The Origin of Consciousness in the
   Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind" by Julian Jaynes.  In fact, it should
   be required reading of anyone before reading this newsgroup, as it explains
   a great deal of what I see posted here.

Larry Smith ([e-mail]) No, I don't speak for Cabletron.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Daily I'd go over to Congress - that grand old benevolent national asylum - and
report on the inmates there.  Never seen a body of men with tongues more handy,
or information more uncertain.  If one of those men had been present when the
Deity was on the point of saying "Let there be light" we never would've had it.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!news.claremont.edu!ucivax!noiro.acs.uci.edu!ttinews!avatar!sorgatz
From: [e-mail] (sorgatz)
Subject: Re: John_-_Winston Poll
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: Get a clue numb----.
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet Admin)
Nntp-Posting-Host: avatar.tti.com
Organization: Transaction Technology Inc.
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 19:55:09 GMT
Lines: 48

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith) writes:
>Hello any & everybody,
>
>Mabye John will get the MESSAGE this way?!?! All those in favor of dear old
>John_-_Winston sending e-mail instead of posting his responses to the world
>at large , please post a RE: to this message to let the post happy
>bandwidth burner
>know we are all growing weary of his blatent disregard for information
>dissemination in an organized & efficient manner.The next step of course
>would be to contact the NETWORK POLICE to give him a keyboard enema.
>
>The choices are:
>
>yes [X] John,please refrain from posting what should be email responses to
>this newsgroup.
>
>no [ ] John, continue with your irratating ways. We love to read all of
>your responses to questions & flames that we have never seen.
>
>the old moronic no opinion [ ] What a stupid idea in the first place,who
>cares about someone with no opinion.
>
>Rod
>
>--
>Rod Beckwith     |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
>Datacom I/S      |"The great obstacle of progress is not ignorance,
>[e-mail]|but the illusion of knowledge."
>                 |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
>
>
>
>

 OK, so it's *not* just my observation..phew!..I hadn't mentioned it for
fear of being flame-broiled by everyone for the mere suggestion that some
net manners might be in order...therefore, list this one as:

 yes [X] PLEASE JOHN, take it to email!


(three cosmic cheers for Rod's Poll..tnx!)


-Avatar-> (aka: Erik K. Sorgatz) KB6LUY           +-------------------------+
Citicorp(+)TTI                          *----------> panic trap; type = N+1 *
3100 Ocean Park Blvd. Santa Monica, CA  90405     +-------------------------+
{philabs,psivax,pyramid,rutgers}!ttidca!sorgatz (or [e-mail])
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: The Truth About.........
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 17:14:04 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 10

Dear Mike: I saw your statement about the tape and it interested me.
If it's OK with your I'd like to give you my opinion about the person
that put out the tape (Brad Stieger). I have read his books for
more than 15 years and they are all very good. He wrote Star Seed. I
believe the other one was Star People. I met  him last summer in a UFO
club convention and we talked for a while. His wife is a very beautiful
person and I do believe that she can channel some very nice entities
from the spirtual world and the space people.  So you've got a good tape
although I have not seen it myself I am aware of the information he puts
out. He is also written up quite often in the tabloid magazines. John Winston
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: John_-_Winston Poll
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 17:26:38 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 2

Dear People: I have been reading your posting and will thinks about them.
John Winston.
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Adamski??
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 17:47:16 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 11

Dear Seeker of Truth: If I might be permitted I will attempt to give
you my opinion of George Adamski. It has been my good pleasure to read
all of the books about and by Mr. Adamski. Back during the 1950s their
were many people who took rides in flying saucers. One of them was
G. A.  Some of the people that he came in contact with were from
Venus. They were the nice looking blond (usually) and sometimes had
page boy type haircuts. George had a contact with a being in the desert
I think near Landers, Calif. on the road to Parker, Nevada. Those who
have contact with space people were called contactees. Last summer I
went to the same spot where G. A. had his contact and it was quite
an experience.  The people from Venus are referred to------John Winston
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Adamski??
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 17:58:44 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 10

----as Nords because they look like Nordic Earth People. On their own
planet the people of Venus are on a different vibrational frequency than
us and we probuly couldn't see them unless we were altered aboard one
of their craft for a while before we got there.  This usually gives us
a tingling feeling for a while but is not unpleasant. We did not accept
the help of the Venus people but we did make a contract with the Greys
(Zetta Reticulians) and they do look a lot different. I hope this has
answered some of your questions. My friend Kelvin Rowe (a contactee)
knew G. A. personally and had a high respect for him.
John Winston.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!decwrl!csus.edu!netcomsv!mork!payner
From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: Ley Lines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 02:22:11 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 44

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>
>John, there are many very weird groups that have many very weird people who
>post to them, and there are no groups at all that are weirder than alt.alien.
>visitors, nor do people come any weirder than some that post in this group.
>
>But, John, you are abusing the privilege, and you may be the first person I
>have ever heard of who might really profit from professional help or a good
>long talk with the clergyperson of your choice.  I certainly don't think you
>can get much worse.
>
>If you refuse, as I expect you will, you should at least learn that:
>
>A) Usenet does not guarantee your posts will arrive in the order in which they
>   were sent.
>B) Usenet does not guarantee your posts will sort in order or even together, if
>   they, perchance, arrive on the same day.
>C) Usenet does not require you break up all your posts into five-line snippets,
>   you can just post your message and be done with it.

This can be explained simply in that John Winston is a computer novice who
has yet to figure how to invoke the editor in Portal. If you do not invoke
the editor (choices are vi and ed), you get one screen full of text, which is
what we see in his posts. Depending upon how you look at it, this may be a
blessing.

This has a simple explanation, the rest speaks for itself I'm afraid.

>D) You should run right out and read "The Origin of Consciousness in the
>   Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind" by Julian Jaynes.  In fact, it should
>   be required reading of anyone before reading this newsgroup, as it explains
>   a great deal of what I see posted here.
>
>Larry Smith ([e-mail]) No, I don't speak for Cabletron.
>-------------------------------------------------------------


Rich

[e-mail]   Who does -not- have an obnoxious sig yet...  :^)



Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!europa.asd.contel.com!darwin.sura.net!jvnc.net!netnews.upenn.edu!msuinfo!shrimp.cps.msu.edu!wilbur
From: [e-mail] (Brick Wilbur)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: John_-_Winston Poll
Keywords: Get a clue numb----.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Jul 92 03:29:15 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Richard Wilbur)
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, Michigan State University
Lines: 38

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith) writes:
|> Hello any & everybody,
|>
|> Mabye John will get the MESSAGE this way?!?! All those in favor of dear old
|> John_-_Winston sending e-mail instead of posting his responses to the world
|> at large , please post a RE: to this message to let the post happy
|> bandwidth burner
|> know we are all growing weary of his blatent disregard for information
|> dissemination in an organized & efficient manner.The next step of course
|> would be to contact the NETWORK POLICE to give him a keyboard enema.
|>
|> The choices are:
|>
|> yes [X] John,please refrain from posting what should be email responses to
|> this newsgroup.
|>
|> no [ ] John, continue with your irratating ways. We love to read all of
|> your responses to questions & flames that we have never seen.
|>
|> the old moronic no opinion [ ] What a stupid idea in the first place,who
|> cares about someone with no opinion.
|>
|> Rod
|>
|> --
|> Rod Beckwith     |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
|> Datacom I/S      |"The great obstacle of progress is not ignorance,
|> [e-mail]|but the illusion of knowledge."
|>                  |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
|>
|>
|>
|>


YES, PLEASE REFRAIN FROM POSTING WHAT SHOULD BE EMAIL RESPONSES TO THIS NEWSGROUP.

BRICK
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!comp.vuw.ac.nz!waikato.ac.nz!aukuni.ac.nz!kcbbs!kc
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Fortify
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (Robert Sutton)
Date: 29 Jul 92 09:10:41 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Kappa Crucis Unix BBS, Auckland, New Zealand
Lines: 11

[e-mail](mathew) 27 Jul 92 12:27:42 types-
>So you'd get people asking what Forteana are & who Charles Fort was.

I,ve long wondered is he from where the word "forte " comes from?.

*************************
ARE ETOI SPACESHIPS SHY
OR ARE THEY JUST WAITING
TO SEAL THE ROYALTY DEAL?
*************************

Path: news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!uunet!munnari.oz.au!deakin.OZ.AU!fulcrum.oz.au!steve
From: [e-mail] (Steve Taylor)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Kill file
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Jul 92 08:02:59 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Fulcrum Consulting Group
Lines: 13

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

>Dear Kevin:
>I believe that if you use the commands subscribe and unsubscribe it
>will give you what you want.

Then again, you could reply to personal mail by using the 'r' key instead of
the 'f' key.

>John Winston.


                            Steve
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!thad
From: [e-mail] (Thad P Floryan)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Spaceships Beyond Our Ken(was Re:Elapsed
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 05:34:10 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 36

In article <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] (Robert Sutton) writes:

|  [e-mail] (Jeff Epler) 20 JUL 92 20:56:21 GMT types-
|  >Say (this is alt.alien.visitors) has this technology been captured
|  >from aliens(of tau ceti) that the CIA has hjad inside the Pentagon
|  >for 73 years.
|
|  If they are aliens from the planet tau ceti orbiting the star Tau Ceti
|  they should have over 60 years to recover it.
|  Anyway why tau ceti & why 73 years???..

Even more, why should ANY of this be believed when simple, easily-verifiable
facts are erroneously stated.

For example, the Pentagon (in Arlington VA) was built between 1941 and 1942.

Its foundation can be no older than 51 years, so there's NO WAY the CIA (or any
other agency) could have sequestered aliens inside the building for 73 years.

The CIA itself hasn't existed that long, being "founded" (so to speak) in 1947
as the successor to the NIA (founded on Jan. 22, 1946) which itself was the
successor to the OSS which started operations June 13, 1942.

Finally, what evidence can be presented showing a planet named "tau ceti"
orbits Tau Ceti?

Our sun is a G2 main sequence star; Tau Ceti is 11.8 light years distant and
is a G8 type which makes it a "likely" candidate for possessing earth-like
planets possibly harboring life, but neither planets nor life have yet been
observed (HST problems notwithstanding).

Sorry, but "Stee-rike THREE; yer OUT!"


Thad Floryan [ [e-mail] ]
Xref: news.uiowa.edu talk.religion.newage:11014 alt.alien.visitors:7673 sci.skeptic:28026
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: The Prime Directive
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 06:27:08 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 11

Dear Everybody: I was asked by Debra where the ruins of the 30,000 year
old city is? It extends from Point Conception to Escondito from North
to South and from the Channel Islands to the mountains north of Malibu.
I was taken 10 miles up the coast from Malibu, up a road that sounded
like the word Decker, over to split rock park, up an old Army road,
past a abandoned Boy Scout camp, past some old water tanks and there you
are. It seems I'm still in Kumar's dreams and everybody and his dog seems
to be on this astral convoy.  Oh yes I look a lot better (and everybody
else does too) in the spiritual or astral body. So long till tonight
because 1100 PM wednesday is take off time again.
John Winston.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!news.funet.fi!polaris!polaris!sara.cc.utu.fi!shanwang
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: John_-_Winston Poll
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: re:john_-_winston poll
Lines: 22
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Nntp-Posting-Host: sara.cc.utu.fi
Organization: University of Turku, Finland
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Jul 92 16:21:46 EET
Lines: 22

>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>    Helleo, every one there :)
>>
>>    I guess taht Mr. winston is a science fiction author and always would
>>    like to post his new inspiration to Net. Let it be, please :)
>>
>>    Let everyone who don't like to read those fiction stuff just skip it:)
>>    As we know most of enthusiasm in this group are serious scholars.
>>
>>    Well, let it be, Please :) Because I think there is still a lot of
>>    readers who are interested in reading those stuffs. Otherwise the group
>>    will be full of complaining message rather than Mr. Winston's fiction
>>    stuffs :) I remembered that once Einstan said, imagination is
>>    most important to a scientist, isn't it? :) So I vote for Winston :)
>>
>>    Cheers,
>>
>>    W.S.
>>
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!usc!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!news.sei.cmu.edu!fs7.ece.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!<UNAUTHENTICATED>+
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 09:39:15 -0400
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: John_Winston poll
Lines: 39


 OK - I was content to just be a lurker and chuckle with the rest of you --
 but John Winston writes -

 > Dear People: I have been reading your posting and will thinks about them.

 This after many impassioned pleas to refrain from upchucking on the net.

 I suggest sending bogus replies to fictitious people directly to him -
 something along the lines of:

 Dear Astraldoggy,

 Woke up last night and took an awe-inspiring dump.  I strained so much I
 saw God cavorting with the Greys.  Nirvana was short-lived however, when
 I realized I was fresh out of toilet paper.  Fortunately, I've learned
 many tricks from Rover and promptly butt-slid across the carpet.  Rover
 was pissed because he knew he was going to get the blame ...

 (you get the idea)

 Maybe after he's slogged through several dozen pointless posts, he'll see
 the wisdom of changing his ways.

 Chris

 Disclaimer: My company prefers Greys on toast with Hollandaise sauce

 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Chris Hendy            | Gulf Tower           | Internet: [e-mail]
  DBA-DataBase Anarchist | 707 Grant Street     | Voice:       [phone]
  Transarc Corporation   | Pittsburgh PA  15219 | FAX:         [phone]
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 It would be like a man, dying of thirst in the desert, begging for water
 and getting an increase in humidity in reply.
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------



Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7676 alt.paranormal:5528
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!csc.ti.com!tilde.csc.ti.com!m2.dseg.ti.com!mmeyer
From: [e-mail] (Mark Meyer)
Subject: Re: Missing & Mutilated Humans
Organization: TI DSEG, Spring Creek, Plano, Tx.
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 16 Jul 1992 02:46:11 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 10
Sender: [e-mail] (Mark Meyer)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 16:31:49 GMT

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jon Roland) writes:
> The author sought out Dr. Ajaja after his talk to confirm and amplify his
> claim. When asked how many humans were found mutilated, he said three, two
> in Russia and one in Chile.

    Russia and Chile?

    I don't think an extraterrestrial explanation is needed
here...

--
Mark Meyer                                               | [e-mail] |
Texas Instruments, Inc.                                  +--------------------+
Every day, Jerry Junkins is grateful that I don't speak for TI.
                              "I just can NOT handle weirdness..." - Boy George
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!sun-barr!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!psuvax1!uxa.ecn.bgu.edu!cfkfb
From: [e-mail] (Karl Bridges)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: feed JW to the Greys
Summary: Feed John Winston to the Greys
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Jul 92 15:45:59 GMT
Organization: Educational Computing Network
Lines: 4


 Could we arrange to feed John Winston to the Greys. Perhaps staking
him out somewhere where they've been active.  Big sign visible from
orbit "Free Eats"
Xref: news.uiowa.edu talk.religion.newage:11015 alt.alien.visitors:7678 sci.skeptic:28031
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!noc.near.net!hri.com!merrimack.edu!caina
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence Day
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Jul 92 11:51:54 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Merrimack College, No. Andover, MA, USA
Lines: 13

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> Dear Dan: I wish that I had you with me yesterday down in Souther Calif.
> on a 5 miles hike into some American Indian ancient country. That would
> have taken some of the starch out of your levies. We were in an area
> where people have sightings of what the indians call Thunderbird and
> what scientist call the pterodactyl.
> John Winston.

   And what everyone else calls a bad drug trip.  Are you sure you weren't
tripping and watching the "Flinstones" at the same time?  Next you'll be
telling us Bigfoot is Elvis' love child.

Alex
Xref: news.uiowa.edu talk.religion.newage:11022 alt.alien.visitors:7679 sci.skeptic:28035
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!charon.amdahl.com!amdahl!JUTS!duts!dfs30
From: [e-mail] (Denise Solis)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Get Off John's Back Please!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Jul 92 17:28:09 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Denise Solis)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA
Lines: 31

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Dan Hillman) writes:
>
>Dear John,
>
>Your (sic) right; I fudge my Levis in glee every time I see one of
>you're (sic) posts.
>
>I am amazed that fully half of the traffic of this newsgroup is comprised
>of your three-line messages ("I'm having an astral wank, everybody!"),
>empty posts (" "), and one-screen text dumps.
>
>Call me a skeptic, but I would think an intelligent life form who
>wanted information distributed would get in touch with someone who had
>a clue.
>


   Come on guys! Give the guy a break. I know John and he's a really
   nice man. If you don'l like his posts then skip them. But geeze
   why so hostile? Freedom of speech is for everyone not just the
   people you agree with!

                                  Denise



--
=========================================================================
>>>>>>>>>>>||      Copyright (c) Denise faith Solis 1992    ||<<<<<<<<<<<
>>>>>>>>>>>||             [e-mail]         ||<<<<<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Xref: news.uiowa.edu talk.religion.newage:11027 alt.alien.visitors:7680 sci.skeptic:28037
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!caen!uwm.edu!news.bbn.com!ingria
From: [e-mail] (Bob Ingria)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: John's Astral Convoy (Was: Re: The Prime Directive)
Date: 29 Jul 1992 18:04:54 GMT
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
NNTP-Posting-Host: bbn.com
In-reply-to: [e-mail]'s message of 29 Jul 92 13:27:08 GMT

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

                           So long till tonight
   because 1100 PM wednesday is take off time again.

You keep saying this.  The question is ``1100 PM wednesday'' in what
timezone?  How are people supposed to know when to meet you if you
don't specify this and allow them to correct for timezone difference,
if necessary?

-30-
Bob

``...livin' in my own private Idaho...''
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!thad
From: [e-mail] (Thad P Floryan)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Extraterrestrials honored
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 11:39:18 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 20

This item on page D5 of the Wednesday, July 29, 1992, San Francisco Chronicle,
in "The Column of Lists" article by David Wallenchinksy and Amy Wallace:

``                    EXTRATERRESTRIALS HONORED

In February 1992 Scotland unveiled what may be the world's first monument
to a UFO.  A plaque in West Lothian commemorates a forestry worker's 1979
sighting of a 30-foot-wide spaceship that hovered over him and ripped off
his clothes.
''


"Ripped-off" as in "stolen" or "stripped him starkers"?  "spaceship" or
"aerial jellyfish with tentacles"?

Nothing like complete, accurate and total reporting.  :-)

What ever happened to the "Who, What, When, Where, Why and How" of reporting?

Thad Floryan [ [e-mail] ]
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!comp.vuw.ac.nz!amigans!ed
From: [e-mail] (Edward Kitto)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: John Winstone
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 21:19:42 GMT
Organization: Wanganui Amigans, Wanganui, New Zealand
Lines: 23

John Winstone writes:

>Dear Press: You made the statement, John you would be God. This statement

>that you made in jest is actually the ultimate goal of enlightment and

>that is to be at one with God. Then you would know everything.

>John Winston.

Now John, you should realise that your ethos itself is misguided. Salvation
is in the seeking. The realisation of your stated goal would result in a
worse Hell than Nietzsche's eternal recurrence. You would do better to look
to folklore than try to invent your own reality. The expression "God (only)
knows" is in the vernacular for a reason.

As a precursor to the self-styled boundary riders who call themselves
flamers - you are right, this is a violation of "netiquette", but your
methods have not worked to date. Neither will this - lemmings are hard to
head off.


[e-mail] (Edward Kitto)
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!usc!rpi!uwm.edu!rutgers!igor.rutgers.edu!dropout.rutgers.edu!mcgrew
From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Why America ?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Jul 92 18:48:36 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 53

>>[e-mail] (Anthony Chaplin) writes:
>>
>>I have a question for all you Phoenix Project fans out there
>>
>>    Why America, why not the old Soviet Union ?

>[e-mail] (Alan Jones,AMJ1,)
>Good point.  In fact, why not Antartica, northern Canada, or the
>middle of an ocean?  The only reasons I can think of would be:
>
>  a.  They are working with Americans which require access to the base.
>  b.  Their work is in that area ...and fuel requirements for
>      transits to/from the more remote locations is prohibitive.
>  c.  Their work is in that area, and transits to/from more remote locations
>      would increase the probability of detection.

.... It depends on what you may think of as the history(s) of
alien/human contact.

  *  If you're a they've-always-been-here person, then clearly the
    presence of a base in the continental US would be by pure
    chance.  (And if the aliens were here to watch humans, the
    US would be a lousy place to look until quite recently.)

  *  If you're a they-arrived-in-1964 person, then the 'selection' of
    the US is due simply because they were contacting humans
    in the US -- any cooperative ventures (regardless of "deeper
    motives", whatever they might be) would require some sort of
    joint-run installation on earth, inside the US.

   * If you're a since-WWII type, then the 'selection' of the US would
    have been due to the technological superiority (read "we got
    the bomb, we stole the rockets"), and again we're back to
    a joint-run installation, again inside the US (from a US
    point of view, to "keep an eye on" and control whatever
    products came from such research.)

   * If you're a steal-humans/zombie 'fan', or cattle-mutilation 'fan',
    or indeed a no-direct-contact 'fan', then things get a little
    more difficult, since quick communication (phone, radio, etc.)
    in the industrialized portions of the planet make the
    possibility of events "getting out" much more likely --
    keeping things secret for many years is no guarantee that is
    will be    secret tomorrow; the risk is too high.  If a base is
    required at all, it'd be placed in a remote area, under the
    sea, or entirely off-planet.  (On the other hand, if the
    aliens were here for a long time, the US would classify for
    most of planet-time as fairly deserted....  what is the sound
    of one hand clapping... it goes around and around and it comes
    out here.  This stuff gets really complicated, ya know?)


Charles
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!europa.asd.contel.com!darwin.sura.net!mips!decwrl!csus.edu!netcomsv!mork!payner
From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: Kill file
Message-ID: <![e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 17:24:10 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 24

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Steve Taylor) writes:
>In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>>Dear Kevin:
>>I believe that if you use the commands subscribe and unsubscribe it
>>will give you what you want.
>
>Then again, you could reply to personal mail by using the 'r' key instead of
>the 'f' key.

Portal does not offer rn, trn, nn, or any regular news reader. Their system
is unique. From portal one could enter 'mail send', and reply to the
poster, but there is no direct way to import the text of the original post.

>>John Winston.
>
>
>                            Steve

Rich

[e-mail]


Xref: news.uiowa.edu talk.religion.newage:11028 alt.alien.visitors:7685 sci.skeptic:28043
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!nntpd2.cxo.dec.com!acetek.enet.dec.com!timpson
From: [e-mail] ()
Subject: Re: Get Off John's Back Please!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 24
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail] ()
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 18:52:19 GMT


>
>I am amazed that fully half of the traffic of this newsgroup is comprised
>of your three-line messages ("I'm having an astral wank, everybody!"),
>empty posts (" "), and one-screen text dumps.
>
>Call me a skeptic, but I would think an intelligent life form who
>wanted information distributed would get in touch with someone who had
>a clue.
>


>   Come on guys! Give the guy a break. I know John and he's a really
>   nice man. If you don'l like his posts then skip them. But geeze
>   why so hostile? Freedom of speech is for everyone not just the
>   people you agree with!

>                                  Denise

    It's not a question of freedom of speach it's the quality/quantity
    of John messages.  It is rediculous and should be tempered.


    Steve Food_for_the_Grays
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!boulder!ucsu!cubldr.colorado.edu!matthews_k
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Fortify
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 25
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: gold.colorado.edu
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 19:45:42 GMT
Lines: 25

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Robert Sutton) writes:
> [e-mail](mathew) 27 Jul 92 12:27:42 types-
>>So you'd get people asking what Forteana are & who Charles Fort was.
>
> I,ve long wondered is he from where the word "forte " comes from?.
>
> *************************
> ARE ETOI SPACESHIPS SHY
> OR ARE THEY JUST WAITING
> TO SEAL THE ROYALTY DEAL?
> *************************


I read this group with some amusement, dismay, and interest, but have not
posted before.  No, "forte" is not from Charles Fort.  It is from old french,
"forte" meaning strong.  Dictionaries are not difficult to use.

or was there supposed to be a :-) on that message?

P.S.  I agree with Mr. Beckwith.  Mr. Winston should refrain from posting
personal e-mail on the net.


Kellie Matthews-Simmons
internet: [e-mail]
Xref: news.uiowa.edu talk.religion.newage:11030 alt.alien.visitors:7687 sci.skeptic:28047
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!The-Star.honeywell.com!umn.edu!lynx!triton.unm.edu!jennyb
From: [e-mail] (Jenny Ballmann)
Subject: Re: Get Off John's Back Please!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 19:37:35 GMT
Organization: Diplomacy 'R' Us
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 28

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] () writes:
>
>>   Come on guys! Give the guy a break. I know John and he's a really
>>   nice man. If you don'l like his posts then skip them. But geeze
>>   why so hostile? Freedom of speech is for everyone not just the
>>   people you agree with!
>
>>                                  Denise
>
>    It's not a question of freedom of speach it's the quality/quantity
>    of John messages.  It is rediculous and should be tempered.
>
He made the top 25 posters by number of articles list.  That's for the
whole net, folks.  He outdid Mutlu.

Since you know him, Denise, why don't you teach him the difference between
email and posts, and what he is doing to piss people off?  Can you explain
to him that these "Dear Dan" type messages are being copied not just to
"Dan", but to tens of thousands of people, who have to pay in one way or
another for it?

This is assuming he doesn't know it already, and is not *trying* to look
clueless.

Jenny
--
The future will be better tomorrow.
                -- Vice President Dan Quayle
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From: [e-mail] (David Ternes)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Get Off John's Back Please!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Jul 92 20:28:21 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (David Ternes)
Followup-To: talk.religion.newage
Organization: Advanced Product Development
Lines: 20

>
>   Come on guys! Give the guy a break. I know John and he's a really
>   nice man. If you don'l like his posts then skip them. But geeze
>   why so hostile? Freedom of speech is for everyone not just the
>   people you agree with!
>
>                                  Denise
>
Come on Denise! Give us a break. I know everyone and they're all
really nice.  If you don'l like our posts then skip them.  But geeze
why so hostile?  Freedom of speech is for everyone not just the
people you agree with!

                   David

;-)


E. David J. Ternes                                       [e-mail]
Goal: To live either in obscurity or in competance.
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!STRATUS.SWDC.STRATUS.COM!lpb
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Hatton: CIA or ET?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Jul 92 21:09:38 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 11

There is a growing body of people (myself included) who feel that Hatton
is a joke and Green is actively working with the CIA to produce disinformation
regarding UFOs and ETS. I always did like a good mystery! ;^)

Does anyone have anything at all regarding Green? If you do please Email
to [e-mail]

Thank You
Len


Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!centerline!noc.near.net!chaos!random.ccs.northeastern.edu!rogue
From: [e-mail] (Rogue Agent)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Spaceships Beyond Our Ken(was Re: Elapsed
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Jul 92 21:35:19 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Comp. Sci. @ NU
Lines: 9

[e-mail] (Jeff Epler) 20 JUL 92 20:56:21 GMT types-
>Say (this is alt.alien.visitors) has this technology been captured
>from aliens(of tau ceti) that the CIA has hjad inside the Pentagon
>for 73 years.

    This would be a really neat trick, especially as neither the
Pentagon nor the CIA has been in existence that long.

    RA
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!uknet!ox-prg!oxuniv!reese
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: July 4, 1992 - Global Spiritual Independence
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Jul 92 14:21:33 GMT
References: <[e-mail]><[e-mail]>  <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: talk.bizarre
Organization: Oxford University VAXcluster
Lines: 19

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> Dear Future Astral Astronauts: In my last report of the Astral Convoy
> I made a few slight mistakes. The person called K. should have been J.
> J. lived in Penn. USA rather than Hawaii. E. forgot to go on the journey
> but his higher self took off on time and did make contact with J.  I
> don't know what J. looks like but I think I got a picture in my mind
> of E.  Shannon passed out according to the information I got from E. and
> wasn't aware of anything. We don't know whether Shannon is a girl or boy
> but we don't want to ask because Shannon will think we're trying to cheat.
> Kumar turned out to be in the USA rather than Germany but he never could
> get his mind altogether. So we have a little room for improvement. We have
> a person from England named Linda that wants in on some of this action. JW

No, you mean K. and J. went with E. to see L. get in a spaceship with X.
I don't think Z. would like it that you get things messed up in this way.
If Linda wants in on some of this action, give her my email address and
we'll see what we can do.

J.
Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7692 talk.bizarre:68063
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!uknet!ox-prg!oxuniv!reese
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.bizarre
Subject: Re: ALIEN GREETZ
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Jul 92 14:24:42 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: talk.bizarre
Organization: Oxford University VAXcluster
Lines: 12

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> Saalome gam naan ben uurda gan neeber asaal hesporoona
>
> HI ya!
>
>     If you know what this means please contact me !

 Salami gum not-a-number been under gun needing astral hernia.

How's that?

Jason
Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7693 talk.bizarre:68064
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!uknet!ox-prg!oxuniv!reese
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.bizarre
Subject: Re: Ley Linesj
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Jul 92 14:27:02 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]><[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: talk.bizarre
Organization: Oxford University VAXcluster
Lines: 12

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> --the Goddess and other planets and other constellations that she speaks
> to, so when you are looking at these two barbells which are symbolical
> of these particular configurations and you have two parallel lines that
> are very close together and usually on either side of these circles,
> these little parallel lines indicate the {specific} transformation doorways
> for the earth and her conciousness. End of Part 3.
> John Winston.

Anyone know what all this rubbish is about? Answers on a postcard please.

Jason
Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7694 talk.bizarre:68065
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!uknet!ox-prg!oxuniv!reese
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.bizarre
Subject: Re: John_-_Winston Poll
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Jul 92 14:30:32 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: talk.bizarre
Organization: Oxford University VAXcluster
Lines: 7

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> Dear People: I have been reading your posting and will thinks about them.
> John Winston.

what does will think about them? does he like them?

Jason
Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7695 alt.sci.physics.new-theories:1996
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!decwrl!infopiz!lupine!motcsd!udc!mcdphx!ennews!telesys!isus!hoyt
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.sci.physics.new-theories
Subject: Re: Elapsed Time near c (was Re: Q&A on Extraterr
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (Hoyt A. Stearns jr.)
Date: 27 Jul 92 03:12:52 GMT
Followup-To: alt.sci.physics.new-theories
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: International Society of Unified Science
Keywords: superluminal
Summary: Followup
Lines: 30

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Geert Spiering) writes:
>I hope this adds to the discussion, but since everyone keeps repeating
>the statement that nothing can travel faster than light, i would like
>to bring up tachyons.
>Einsteins theory only states that nothing can travel WITH the speed of
>light. This means that you cannot accelerate to above the speed of light
>from velocities less than the speed of light. (An infinite amount of
>energy would be necessary).
>However there may be particles that ALWAYS travell at velocities > c.
>The catch is, that these particles would have to have imaginary masses.
>One could still associate real energies to these particles, that are
>singular at v=c. This means that these particles cannot slow down to
>velocities<c.
>Of course, no one has ever seen particles with imaginary masses....

If for no other reasons than aesthetics and symmetry, it seems reasonable to
assume that the universe is symmetric about the speed of light--half of the
total number of non-massless particles are >c (anti-particles).

The Reciprocal System concludes this.  The >c particles gravitate in time
instead of space, so appear isotropic and uniformly distributed to us,
and make their appearance only as cosmic rays, and then only when slowed
down from >c to exactly c, usually as a result of a of a >c star
going supernova.

--
Hoyt A. Stearns jr.|hoyt@          | International Society of Unified Science|
4131 E. Cannon Dr. |isus.tnet.com  | Advancing Dewey B. Larson's Reciprocal  |
Phoenix, AZ. 85028 |ncar!enuucp!   | System- a unified physical theory.      |
voice_602_996_1717 telesys!isus!hoyt The Universe in two postulates!_________|
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!suite!suite.com!Mark-Tarbell
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Orgone Energy
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Jul 92 01:16:12 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Lines: 11
Nntp-Posting-Host: gilgamesh

My Digital Webster dictionary defines "orgone energy" as:

or gone \'o (e)r-,go n\ n
[prob. fr. orgasm + -one (as in hormone)]
(1942)
:a vital energy held to pervade nature and to be made available for use by
 the human body by sitting in a specially designed box

Okay, I give.  What's the story here?
(...and where can I get one of them BOXES!!!)

Xref: news.uiowa.edu talk.religion.newage:11039 alt.alien.visitors:7697 sci.skeptic:28069
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Get Off John's Back Please!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 19:04:05 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 10

Dear Denice: Thanks for taking up for me. I need all the help I can get.
Two days ago I got some E=mail from a person who said that he was
having a hard time paying his long distance bill for his posting. I
replied to him then erased his message. I've been thinking about it
and would appreciate it if he would E=mail me again and maybe something
could be worked out. I've even had the space people do me a favor before
and without me begging too hard they did something to where my long
distance calls didn't come out on my bill. I don't know how they did it
but it was appreciated. Thanks again Denice.
John Winston.
Xref: news.uiowa.edu talk.religion.newage:11040 alt.alien.visitors:7698 sci.skeptic:28070
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: John's Astral Convoy (Was: Re: The Prime Directive)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 19:19:07 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 10

Dear Clock Watchers:
The take off time for the Astral Convoy will be 1100 PM Milpitas, Calif.
daylight savings time.  I feel pretty good physically for the shape I'm in
but Astrally and Spiritally I feel that I cans leap tall buildings with
a single bound. Loosen up everybody. Try not to be so serious. The
more serious you are the more it is going to hold you back. I'll throw
in a little extra tonight (wednesday), I'll ask the space people to appear
to anyone that would like to see them. They don't have to do it but it
would be an added thing.
John Winston
Xref: news.uiowa.edu talk.religion.newage:11041 alt.alien.visitors:7699 sci.skeptic:28072
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!destroyer!uunet!mcsun!sun4nl!utrcu1!infnews!heksterb
From: [e-mail] (Ben Hekster)
Subject: Re: Get Off John's Back Please!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: sci.skeptic
Summary: Oh please don't talk about "freedom of speech"
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: utis96
Organization: University of Twente, Dept. of Computer Science
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 02:42:16 GMT
Lines: 28

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Denise Solis) writes:
>   Come on guys! Give the guy a break. I know John and he's a really
>   nice man. If you don'l like his posts then skip them. But geeze
>   why so hostile? Freedom of speech is for everyone not just the
>   people you agree with!

No-one is questioning his "freedom of speech".  I wish people would
stop saying this every time someone tries to infuse a little sanity
into a discussion.  And remember that it works both ways.   Just as
Mr. Winston has the `right' to post his astral journal to the net others
have the `right' to respond.  And you have the right to respond to the
respondents, and I have the right..., &c &c ad infinitum.  It is a
non-issue.

    Nor would I describe the reactions he has been getting here
as particularly "hostile".  Although for the life of me I can't imagine
what kind of reaction he would have expected from a newsgroup called
"sci.skeptic" (note the "sci").

    I'm sure John is a nice guy, too.  Honest.  That's probably the
reason why he has been treated rather more charitably and humorously
than someone else posting 50+ messages of drivel (always IMO, of
course) in the space of two weeks would otherwise have merited.

(Any necessary follow-ups to sci.skeptic)
--
Ben `Hackster' Hekster        | "He bides his time and thinks,
[e-mail]        |  'There must be more to life than this!'"
Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7700 sci.skeptic:28074
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!decwrl!csus.edu!netcomsv!mork!sheaffer
From: [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer)
Subject: Re: Men In Black
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 05:56:55 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 43

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Michael Corbin) writes:
>        (Sheaffer writes:)
> > Yes, Barker was definitely "pulling peoples' chain" with just about
> > everything he wrote. If anyone did anything the least bit strange, he
> > would suggest "was X visited by (gasp!) the Three Men???????".
> >
> > James Moseley, one of the *least-silent* individuals in UFOlogy today,
> > was claimed by Barker in "They Knew Too Much about Flying Saucers" to
> > have
> > been silenced by the MIB during the 1950s. Moseley obviously views the
> > whole thing as a big joke. If you ask him about it, he just smiles
> > and says, "I'm sorry, I'm not at liberty to discuss that!"
>
>What is your reading on John Keel, who also is a big proponent of the MIB
>stuff?

When I met John Keel, he was sitting at the lunch-counter of a hotel
coffee shop, chatting amicably with Mr. Amazing Randi. The two are old
friends from 'way back. I joined them, and got the distinct impression
that all three of us agreed that UFOs are one big joke.

If you find that hard to believe, read Keel's article "The Man Who Invented
Flying Saucers" (The Story of Ray Palmer) in "The Fringes of Reason - A
Whole Earth Catalog." There is *no* way an article like that could be
written by anyone who took UFOs the least bit seriously. If there were
no author's name given, you'd swear it had to be written by Menzel or
Klass.

When I met the late Gray Barker, he admitted quite directly that
he didn't believe a word of the stuff he was writing.


--

        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]

 Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!

       "Beware when the great God lets loose a thinker on this planet.
        Then all things are at risk. It is as when a conflagration has
        broken out in a great city, and no man knows what is safe, or
        where it will end."
                               - Emerson: Essay, "Circles"
Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7701 sci.skeptic:28075
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!decwrl!csus.edu!netcomsv!mork!sheaffer
From: [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer)
Subject: Re: Zeta Reticuli Incident
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 06:06:32 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 48

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Thad P Floryan) writes:
>
>However, I did find the following (obviously mis-filed :-)
>
>                    "The Zeta Reticuli Incident"
>                       by Terence Dickinson
>
>                     With related commentary by:
>
>                         Jeffrey L. Kretsch
>                             Carl Sagan
>                            Steven Soter
>                          Robert Scheaffer
>                           Marjorie Fish
>                         David Saunders, and
>                            Michael Peck
>
>which is a 32-page, nicely printed (in color) reprint from ASTRONOMY Magazine.
>
>From the frontispiece:
>
>    The Zeta Reticuli Incident by Terrence Dickinson, et al.
>
>    Copyright (C) 1976 by AstroMedia Corp., publisher of ASTRONOMY
>    magazine, 757 N. Broadway, Suite 204, Milwaukee WI 53202, all rights
>
>Many arguments, rebuttals, counter-arguments/-rebuttals are in the reprint.
>
>Perhaps someone should determine whether copies are still available.

The last time I saw Stanton Friedman's travelling road show, he was
still peddling copies of this booklet. Probably copies are available
from him.

(And please note that my name is spelled wrong in it!!)


--

        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]

 Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!

       "Beware when the great God lets loose a thinker on this planet.
        Then all things are at risk. It is as when a conflagration has
        broken out in a great city, and no man knows what is safe, or
        where it will end."
                               - Emerson: Essay, "Circles"
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!usc!wupost!waikato.ac.nz!aukuni.ac.nz!kcbbs!kc
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Alien Film
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (Robert Sutton)
Date: 30 Jul 92 09:57:55 GMT
Organization: Kappa Crucis Unix BBS, Auckland, New Zealand
Lines: 12

A couple of weeks ago here in Auckland NZ they had a film festival &
1 of the films was a 50 minute USA film entitled something like
TRIBULATION 99 ALIEN ......UNDER AMERICA-

Has anyone seen this or even has any more info on it?.How about a review/
critique etc?.

*************************************************
ARE ETOI SPACESHIPS SHY
OR ARE THEY JUST WAITING
TO SEAL THE ROYALTY DEAL?
************************************************
Xref: news.uiowa.edu talk.religion.newage:11043 alt.alien.visitors:7703 sci.skeptic:28079
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!news.funet.fi!hydra!klaava!cust_ts
From: [e-mail] (Tero Sand)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: John's Astral Convoy (Was: Re: The Prime Directive)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Jul 92 09:40:08 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <l7dne6INN4 <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 20

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Clock Watchers:
>The take off time for the Astral Convoy will be 1100 PM Milpitas, Calif.
>daylight savings time.  I feel pretty good physically for the shape I'm in
>but Astrally and Spiritally I feel that I cans leap tall buildings with
>a single bound. Loosen up everybody. Try not to be so serious. The
>more serious you are the more it is going to hold you back. I'll throw
>in a little extra tonight (wednesday), I'll ask the space people to appear
>to anyone that would like to see them. They don't have to do it but it
>would be an added thing.
>John Winston

Frankly, this is not an article, this is an ad, an invitation to a
religious meeting (of sorts). I don't see it belonging to sci.skeptic
any more than, say, comp.sys.mac.
--
-Tero Sand
  EMail: [e-mail]     Snail mail: Auroran Sairaala os. 6-1
  (if that doesn't work, try                    Nordenskioldinkatu 20
   [e-mail])                  00250 Helsinki 25, Finland
Xref: news.uiowa.edu talk.religion.newage:11045 alt.alien.visitors:7704 sci.skeptic:28084
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: John's Astral Convoy (Was: Re: The Prime Directive)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 06:26:49 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <l7dne6INN4 <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 11

Dear Astral Trekies: Now before I read any of your mail or postings
please let me inform you what happened last night on the second weekly
Astral Convoy. I programmed myself to go see quite a few people, went to
sleep and then my wife came in and touched me. I nearly jumped out of
my skin and thought I saw something  big looking at me through my open
window (it was just cause by the way the wooden shutter was placed in
a certain position). I then took off for all of USA then Europe then
England. Then something happened that another person said had happen to
him during this Astral Train, I started riding a horse. This morning
I awoke seeming to be in a three layer deep conciousness.  I had to wake
up in three layers of conciousness, so that's it.  John Winston
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!uknet!icdoc!syma!andrews
From: [e-mail] (Andrew Shires)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: AARGGH!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 28 Jul 92 13:14:39 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (Andrew Shires)
Organization: University of Sussex, England
Lines: 47

I returned to the computer lab this afternoon to find that I had left myself
logged-on, and a certain someone had left me a mail message on my account to
point this out --

From [e-mail] Tue Jul 28 12:57:30 1992
Received: from cste.ctn.cogs.susx.ac.uk by tsunb.ctn.cogs.susx.ac.uk; Tue, 28 Jul 92 12:57:26 +0100
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
From: Andrew Shires <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 12:54:54 +0100
To: [e-mail]
Subject: still logged in

you have left yourself logged in and open to infiltration
be warned























your little grey friend with big almond eyes

----------------------------------------------------------------------

ARGH!  I always knew they'd get around to me soon . . .


--
Andrew Shires, COGS, University of Sussex, Falmer, Brighton, ENGLAND
email: [e-mail]    and    [e-mail]
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!ibmchs!auschs!awdprime.austin.ibm.com!selket.austin.ibm.com!mike
From: [e-mail] (Mike Austin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: John_-_Winston Poll
Keywords: Get a clue numb----.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 29 Jul 92 18:59:09 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Mike Austin)
Organization: IBM Austin, TX
Lines: 28

> Hello any & everybody,
>
> Mabye John will get the MESSAGE this way?!?! All those in favor of dear old
> John_-_Winston sending e-mail instead of posting his responses to the world
> at large , please post a RE: to this message to let the post happy
> bandwidth burner
> know we are all growing weary of his blatent disregard for information
> dissemination in an organized & efficient manner.The next step of course
> would be to contact the NETWORK POLICE to give him a keyboard enema.
>

To hell with a poll, sic the network police on him now!

John_-_Winston, STOP posting this personal crap.  We are sick of it!
You are ruining an otherwise entertaining newsgroup.  If you haven't
already, read the various postings about using the net found in
news.admin or news.announce.newusers.  If you don't start paying
attention and become a more friendly USENET user, you are inviting
the wrath of many other users.  From your postings I gather that you
may have an understanding of the concept of karma.  You are building
up a rather hefty negative weight on your karma scale.

I repeat, knock this crap off!  Now!

_____________________________________________________________
Mike Austin (contractor)   | There is no greater urge than
IBM Austin, PSPA (AIX IDD) | to change someone else's copy.
[phone]             |
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!nigel.msen.com!fmsrl7!lynx!carina.unm.edu!cary
From: [e-mail] (Ithlial the Archer)
Subject: Re: UFO books
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 15:22:49 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 34

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Elaine: You ask about UFO book so here I go.
>I'll try to give you my opinion on the subject.
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What gives John, you don't know your own opinion?  I owuld think that
the negative of the statement would cause more difficulty for most
people.

>The first book is Stranger At The
>Pentagon by Frank Stranges.  Fate Magazine just got through writing
>an article tearing this book apart. I figure if Fate has that much to
>say about it then it's got to be good. I read it many years ago and it
>talks about a person from Venus called Valient Thor who contacted Ike I.
               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Pretty tough dude to be able to live on a planet where the surface
temperature is hot enougth to melt lead, tin and other soft metals.
Not to mention the fact that the atmosphere is corrisive.

>(our president) and tried to give us some help. We didn't take his
>help but he did give us 2 or more UFOs to show good faith. You can get
>the book at Inner Light Publications, P.O. Box 753, New Prunswick,
>NJ 08903 USA.

Ithlial the Archer

My opinions, mine, mine, mine!

I bet the main reason the police keep people away from a plane crash
is they don't want anybody walking in and lying down in the crash
stuff, then, when some comes up, act like they just woke up and go,
"What, was THAT?!"



Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!destroyer!fmsrl7!lynx!apsicc.aps.edu!jim
From: [e-mail] (frost...)
Subject: Re: Why America ?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 17:42:00 GMT
Organization: Albuquerque Public Schools - Career Enrichment Center
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
Lines: 68

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Joe Citro III) writes...
>[e-mail]  writes:
>> In article [e-mail], [e-mail] (Anthony Chaplin) writes:
>> >
>> >I have a question for all you Phoenix Project fans out there
>> >
>> >    Why America, why not the old Soviet Union ?
>> >
>> >Think about it logically,
>> >
>> >    1. Russia has vast tracks of barren, unpopulated lands. Compared to Russia the remote places in America really aren't that remote.
>> >
>> >    2. Russia's air traffic control and radar network is much less comphensive than the USA's, therefore the aliens could come and go more easily..
>> >
>> >    3. Russia, during the cold war was far behind the technology of the west and so would be willing to pay a higher price for alien technology ?
>> >
>> >    4. People could be silenced much more easily in the old Soviet Union than they could in the USA (except if your name was Silkwood !)
>> >
>> >Therefore if these supposed aliens had observed the earth they would have found the Old Soviet Union a much more inviting place to build K-2 ??
>> >
>> >But let me guess they do use the Soviet Union for bases, and someone somewhere (who also forgot his camera) has seen it !
>> >
>> >Don't get me wrong I don't have a closed mind to aliens (otherwise I wouldn't subscript to this newsgroup) but massive alien bases in the USA ?
>> >
>> >Cheers
>> >
>> >Tony
>> >[e-mail]
>>
>> Good point.  In fact, why not Antartica, northern Canada, or the middle of an
>> ocean?  The only reasons I can think of would be:
>>
>>   a.  They are working with Americans which require access to the base.
>>   b.  Their work is in that area (outside the base, assuming they must leave
>>       the base to accomplish some part of their work), and fuel requirements for
>>       transits to/from the more remote locations is prohibitive.
>>   c.  Their work is in that area, and transits to/from more remote locations
>>       would increase the probability of detection.
>>
>> It really comes down to this - why do they have a base on Earth at all?
>>
>> Of course, the possible existence of an alien base in the U.S. does not preclude
>> the possibility of bases existing in these other, more remote, places either.
>>
>> ---
>> sincerely,
>> Alan Jones  /  Texas Instruments, Dallas, TX  /  email=[e-mail]
>>
>Why not use the moon as a base? (of course maybe they are).  The close
>proximity to Earth and the seclusion would make it ideal!
>
>                                        Joseph A. Citro III
>
The moon would be the most ideal candidate for earth observation, even if only
of an anthropological nature to watch a species evolve. For any race that was
capable of crossing between stars a short hop from the moon to the earth and
back when necessary would be a minor thing.

Remember the days about thirty years ago when lights were reported seen moving
along crater walls, one of the most notable events occured in Plato. There was
also the reputed bridgelike structure seen and a photograph of the shadow it
cast was even published in an issue of Sky and Telescope of the period I believe.

======================================================================
   We are rapidly ascending through prosperity to poverty...  Twain
                    Internet:    [e-mail]
       Albuquerque Public Schools - Instructional System Manager
======================================================================
Xref: news.uiowa.edu talk.bizarre:68169 alt.alien.visitors:7709
Newsgroups: talk.bizarre,alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!sybus.sybus.com!myrddin!tct!chip
From: [e-mail] (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: Ley Linesj
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 14:53:57 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL
Lines: 12

According to [e-mail]:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>> --the Goddess and other planets and other constellations that she speaks
>> to, so when you are looking at these two barbells which are symbolical...
>
>Anyone know what all this rubbish is about?

Better living through chemistry.
--
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>
   "Do Rush place weird subliminal backmasked messages in their songs to
 compel unwilling geeks to commit evil .sig atrocities?"  -- Dean Engelhardt
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!caen!sdd.hp.com!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!ceblair
From: [e-mail] (Charles Blair)
Subject: Alien endorses Clinton!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 18:05:37 GMT
Lines: 1

   No kidding!  Check the tabloid counter at your supermarket.
Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7711 sci.skeptic:28102
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!acd4!TEFS1!gvb
From: [e-mail] (Gregg Brown)
Subject: Re: Men In Black
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 17:05:55 GMT
Lines: 71

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Michael Corbin) writes:
>>        (Sheaffer writes:)
>> > Yes, Barker was definitely "pulling peoples' chain" with just about
>> > everything he wrote. If anyone did anything the least bit strange, he
>> > would suggest "was X visited by (gasp!) the Three Men???????".
>> >
>> > James Moseley, one of the *least-silent* individuals in UFOlogy today,
>> > was claimed by Barker in "They Knew Too Much about Flying Saucers" to
>> > have
>> > been silenced by the MIB during the 1950s. Moseley obviously views the
>> > whole thing as a big joke. If you ask him about it, he just smiles
>> > and says, "I'm sorry, I'm not at liberty to discuss that!"
>>
>>What is your reading on John Keel, who also is a big proponent of the MIB
>>stuff?
>
>When I met John Keel, he was sitting at the lunch-counter of a hotel
>coffee shop, chatting amicably with Mr. Amazing Randi. The two are old
>friends from 'way back. I joined them, and got the distinct impression
>that all three of us agreed that UFOs are one big joke.
>
>If you find that hard to believe, read Keel's article "The Man Who Invented
>Flying Saucers" (The Story of Ray Palmer) in "The Fringes of Reason - A
>Whole Earth Catalog." There is *no* way an article like that could be
>written by anyone who took UFOs the least bit seriously. If there were
>no author's name given, you'd swear it had to be written by Menzel or
>Klass.
>
>When I met the late Gray Barker, he admitted quite directly that
>he didn't believe a word of the stuff he was writing.
>
>
>--
>
>        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]
>
> Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!
>
>       "Beware when the great God lets loose a thinker on this planet.
>        Then all things are at risk. It is as when a conflagration has
>        broken out in a great city, and no man knows what is safe, or
>        where it will end."
>                               - Emerson: Essay, "Circles"

So, Mr. Skeptic, what is your explanation for the supposed "abductees"
regression statements that so many "UFO" writers are standing by? I was
just complaining to a co-worker this morning that is about half way through
Budd Hopkins' book "Intruders", as I am, that there is no middle ground in this
subject called UFO/UFO abductions/Alien Visitors. Scientific men completely
deny any existence but so many people swear its happen(ing)(ed). I am on the
virge of falling one way or the other. I have always been intensly interested
in the possiblities but always viewed it as somewhat of a warped kind of
Sci-Fi entertainment. In the last six months I have come to realize that
there are people that claim this is happening...FOR REAL! I am examining
evidence to convince myself one way or the other.

I support the fact that there are a lot of hoaxers and people who do it
for the money/popularity/etc. However, it seems it would be hard to pull the
wool over my eyes that much. I see a lot of pictures (which can be faked),
I read regression transcripts (which can be ficticious). I tend to agree
with Budd in that people refuse to believe it because of the negative,
"our little bubble" type philosophy. The fact is its hard to see the
ground when you are wading in BULLSHIT up to your neck! I mean both
kinds: Yeah and Nay. By golly, something is going on. Not sure what
but I definately will be finding out.

Gregg.
[e-mail]


Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!pipex!demon!cix.compulink.co.uk!bernieb
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
From: [e-mail] (Steve Browne)
Subject: Re: John_-_Winston Poll
Cc: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 18:55:12 +0000
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 15


>To hell with a poll, sic the network police on him now!
>
>John_-_Winston, STOP posting this personal crap.  We are sick of it!

Hear Hear! Some of us actually have to pay for our usenet access, and then
have to pay to download it - 75% of which is absolutely of no interest to me,
coz John's mailing publicly.

I'm not happy :(

-----------------------------
[e-mail]
[e-mail]
Steve Browne @ Notes
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!STRATUS.SWDC.STRATUS.COM!lpb
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: ET Info Request
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Jul 92 21:08:11 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 10

My connection to the Usenet is shut down as usual.  This is here via Email.
If there are any articles here regarding Plieadians, Hatton, or Ashtar or Greys
etc ... would someone be so kind to Email them to me??????

Big Thanks,
len

[e-mail]


Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7714 sci.skeptic:28108
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!wupost!m.cs.uiuc.edu!cs.uiuc.edu!mcgrath
From: [e-mail] (Robert McGrath)
Subject: Re: Men In Black
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Database (admin-Mike Schwager))
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 21:02:35 GMT
Lines: 35

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Gregg Brown) writes in part:
|>
|> So, Mr. Skeptic, what is your explanation for the supposed "abductees"
|> regression statements that so many "UFO" writers are standing by?
Ahem.  Testimony from hypnotic regression is VERY shaky.  Good
hypnotists are very, very careful because it is so easy for the
hypnotist to create false memories by suggestion, even unintentionally.

From what I have read of old Budd's technique, he is terribly
incompetant and seems to be totally unaware of this issue.  My
observation is that he is spreading his own beliefs by hypnotic
suggestion.  In other words, the explanation is simple--a charlatan
is promulgating his own twisted fantasies through abuse of hypnotism.

This would be almost funny if he weren't doing such damage to his
victims.  Whatever problems these people may or may not have had
(and some of them definitely had problems before Budd got them),
they now have a firmly entrenched belief that they have been raped
by aliens.  In most cases, this belief is incorrect, but the
psychological effect is likely to be horrible.

Budd and the other "abductionophiles" have a lot to answer for.

|> By golly, something is going on. Not sure what
|> but I definately will be finding out.
You bet something is going on, and it is a scandal.

As you investigate this, please learn something about hypnosis and
hypnotic suggestion.  Try to keep a little perspective--Budd Hopkins
is not necessarily a reliable source.

--
  Robert E. McGrath
  Urbana Illinois
  [e-mail]
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!europa.asd.contel.com!darwin.sura.net!mips!sdd.hp.com!caen!batcomputer!munnari.oz.au!deakin.OZ.AU!fulcrum.oz.au!steve
From: [e-mail] (Steve Taylor)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Kevin Fisher
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Jul 92 01:11:16 GMT
Organization: The Fulcrum Consulting Group
Lines: 5

Kevin -
    your mail to John Winston ended up in my mailbox. I tried to email
    you back, but it bounced.

                                Steve
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!dtix!darwin.sura.net!mips!mips!rtech!ingres!kevinq
From: [e-mail] (Kevin Quinn)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Alien endorses Clinton!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Jul 92 22:53:46 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Kevin Quinn)
Organization: Ask Computer Systems Inc., Ingres Division, Alameda CA 94501
Lines: 13

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Charles Blair) writes:
>   No kidding!  Check the tabloid counter at your supermarket.

Damn alien!  He was buddy-buddy with my pal Ross just a couple weeks ago...



kbq

--
Kevin Quinn                         | [e-mail]
                                    | {mtzinu,pacbell,ll-winken,sun}!ingres.com
My opinions are my own.  Should you think otherwise, think again.
Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7717 sci.skeptic:28120
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!olivea!decwrl!csus.edu!netcomsv!mork!sheaffer
From: [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Abductions (was: Men In Black)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Jul 92 23:33:24 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Lines: 25

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gregg Brown) writes:
>
>So, Mr. Skeptic, what is your explanation for the supposed "abductees"
>regression statements that so many "UFO" writers are standing by? I was
>just complaining to a co-worker this morning that is about half way through
>Budd Hopkins' book "Intruders", as I am, that there is no middle ground in this
>subject called UFO/UFO abductions/Alien Visitors. Scientific men completely
>deny any existence but so many people swear its happen(ing)(ed). I am on the

No doubt these people do indeed *claim* such experiences. But just because
somebody *claims* something happened doesn't mean that it did, and
sincerity is irrelevant to whether the claim is true or not; all it
means is that the person *believes* it's true. And anybody can hallucinate.

--

        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]

 Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!

       "Beware when the great God lets loose a thinker on this planet.
        Then all things are at risk. It is as when a conflagration has
        broken out in a great city, and no man knows what is safe, or
        where it will end."
                               - Emerson: Essay, "Circles"
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!The-Star.honeywell.com!umn.edu!lynx!carina.unm.edu!cary
From: [e-mail] (Ithlial the Archer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Alien endorses Clinton!
Message-ID: <c![e-mail]>
Date: 30 Jul 92 23:56:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Lines: 20

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Charles Blair) writes:
>   No kidding!  Check the tabloid counter at your supermarket.

I guess now that Perot has dropped out the greys have to endorse Clinton!?!?
The question is what do they have against Bush/Quayle?

Ithlial

****************************************************************************
*
*Have you ever seen a corpse at a plane crash?  Most aren't in one piece.
*Many times they've burned to death.  Have you ever seen a corpse of
*someone who's burned to death?  It's about the most agonizing way
*to die - many have have their mouths wide open, since they were screaming
*in agony as they died.
*
*a quotation from:  Jim Harvey
*           [e-mail]
*
****************************************************************************
Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7719 sci.skeptic:28124
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!usc!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!igor.rutgers.edu!dropout.rutgers.edu!mcgrew
From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Men In Black
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 Jul 92 01:07:43 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 43


    [e-mail] writes
    Ahem.  Testimony from hypnotic regression is VERY shaky.  Good
    hypnotists are very, very careful because it is so easy for
    the hypnotist to create false memories by suggestion, even
    unintentionally....In other words, the explanation is
    simple--a charlatan is promulgating his own twisted fantasies
    through abuse of hypnotism.

.... In general I agree with your comments about hypnosis (but am not
quite willing to completely go along with your condemnation of Mr.
Hopkins.)  A number of abductees' memories have not been
hypnosis-enhanced, and Budd doesn't hypnotise-interview all there are
(he's the best known, is all.)  The phenomenon (regardless of source)
is very complex.  Jacques Vallee had a bit on this subject in his
recent book "Confrontations" (in a section appropriately titles "The
Abduction Quagmire").  I recommend the book.  Here's a semi-summary:

    * Don't hypnotise people yourself, unless you are a qualified,
      professional hypnotherapist.

    * Just because a non-professional has performed (even many)
      hypnosis sessions before, is no guarantee that what
      information is gained has any value (or truth) at all.

    * There is (as Robert said) a real danger that a
      hypnotherapist may "pull" false memories from a subject with
      leading questions, and even plant such memories and screw
      the subject up in this way.  If you really want to use
      hypnosis, use a properly-checked-out professional (often a
      psychologist), and use one who does NOT have a pro-UFO or
      anti-UFO bias.  Let the hypnotist frame the questions, and
      control the situation.

    * Hypnosis should be a last resort; often it is not required.
      Once a subject has been interrogated through hypnosis
      (especially an amateur), then any further, non-hyposis
      rememberances will be suspect.


.... playing with people's heads is dangerous stuff.  Be careful.

Charles
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!decwrl!csus.edu!netcomsv!mork!sheaffer
From: [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer)
Subject: Re: Is Bigfoot a Visitor?
Message-ID: <d!qmtx#[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 23:57:29 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 51

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith) writes:
>
>What happened next was one of a few strange things that has happened to me
>in my life.I'm not sure exactly what time it was but it was pre-sunrise(you
>know when the sun has not come up over the horizen but the light begins to
>dominate over  the darkness.Well like I said , I never wake up but that
>morning I woke out of a dead sleep & sat strait UP! Looked out of the
>screen door to see to my amazement
>7-10' creature standing about 5-6' away......staring at me.I could not
>really see its eyes but it was apparently facing my direction. I then
>rubbed my eyes violently & took a second look.....HOLY SHIT this thing is
>still standing there motionless.Boy the butterflies in my stomach felt like
>bats racing through my innards,man was I scared.I could see the outline of
>hair all over its body,(like Chewbacca from Star Wars)except for its legs.
>The legs were covered with
>scales/plates or body armor type stuff,it was not light enough to get a
>real
>good look at it..too strange. I then after about what seemed like forever
>(probably more like 30 seconds) I turned to my X and tried to wake her up
>to see this thing. She would not wake up & I shook her pretty good. Finally
>she came around but she was really groggy. I then turned back around to
>show her this thing but it was G-O-N-E. No sound of footsteps or
>anything....just gone. My X was not to happy that I woke her up & went back
>to sleep. I ,on the other had was pretty shook up. I didn't like the idea
>that a BIG critter could just materialize in our campsite & then just
>vanish. I never got the feeling it was trying to communicate with me or
>anything like that. I did not get up to go & check it out,,which was
>strange cause normally I am a curious person.I finally made it back to
>sleep.What a night!!

A classic description of a hypnogogic (or is is hypnopompic?) vision,
a hallucination that occurs at the boundary between sleep and wakefulness.
Sometimes the visions of the dream state and the background of the
wakeful state become superimposed, for just a few seconds. Relax,
you're perfectly normal - plenty of people have had experiences like this.

I think that a lot of the "night abductors" are visions of this same
sort. The mind provides the scary image, prompting the viewer to contact
Budd Hopkins, and he "leads" them to fill in the rest.

--

        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]

 Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!

       "Beware when the great God lets loose a thinker on this planet.
        Then all things are at risk. It is as when a conflagration has
        broken out in a great city, and no man knows what is safe, or
        where it will end."
                               - Emerson: Essay, "Circles"
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!europa.asd.contel.com!darwin.sura.net!mips!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!torn!watserv2.uwaterloo.ca!watserv1!mach4!kfisher3
From: [e-mail] (kevin fisher U)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Moon activities?
Summary: wierd scenes inside the gold mine
Keywords: moon, wierd
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 Jul 92 01:56:26 GMT
Organization: Wilfrid Laurier University
Lines: 20

Someone posted earlier about lights on the moon and a bridge thing happening
about 30 years ago.  Even though this is about 10 years before my time, I
still read about it.  I also heard, about little 'domes' appearing upon the
moon's face around Plato, around this time.  Does anyone have any further
info, ie. was any reason found for these sightings?

I also read that somewhere back in the telescope age several witnesses
worldwide confirmed the presence of a strange flying 'M' over the surface of
Mars, stationary, for several days (weeks?).  Anyone know anything?
Of course, these are the people who also saw 'canals' on Mars too..

T-T,
-kev


--
Kevin Fisher  ><>    UUCP:[e-mail]             Tiger-Tiger!
Physics & Computing '92 at WLU  - - "I can't handle it!"
        We're gonna have a ball tonight,
            Down at the Globe.."  - - BAD II
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.unomaha.edu!cwis.unomaha.edu!jcitro3
From: [e-mail] (Joe Citro III)
Subject: Re: Roswell Museum (UFO Engima)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (UNO Network News Server)
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 02:38:17 GMT
Lines: 7

Wes,

Thanks for the info on the Roswell museum.  I'll check it out next year on my
way to L.A.

                                                Joseph A. Citro III

Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7723 alt.conspiracy:17221 alt.activism:30179 sci.skeptic:28132 misc.headlines:23000 alt.politics.bush:1041
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,alt.activism,sci.skeptic,misc.headlines,alt.politics.bush
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: [e-mail] (Don Allen)
Subject: UFO "October Surprise" and USA TAKEOVER?!
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 01:15:41 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 284



This was sent to me by a friend who typed it up from a bulletin

sent out from the C.A.C. (Cosmic Awareness) group, out in

Washington State. I'm posting it as-is and am asking anyone

who reads it to please take it with a BIG grain of salt. This

info has NOT been verified. Anyone who can verify or refute

it, please have at it. This will be posted to all the UFO

conferences. - Don

-------------------------------------------------------------------



        ATTENTION:  CIVIL WAR IS ABOUT TO BEGIN IN THE UNITED STATES!

        YOU AND YOUR LOVED ONES ARE IN ACUTE DANGER!  RACE RIOTS AND

        SLAUGHTER OF AMERICANS WILL BE THE FIRST SIGN!



        THIS IS NO JOKE!  On July 4, 1992, at a UFO convention in Arca-

        dia, CA, Mr. Michael Younger, a member of the super-secret COM-12

        group and a scientist who worked at Groom Lake, Area 51 in

        Nevada, stunned the audience of over 200 people with the

        following incredible information, which, if true, endangers the

        lives and freedoms of every American.  Here is the amazing sce-

        nario of the planned events:



        Beginning in August of this year, 1992, a conspiracy long at work

        behind the scenes of our government, will make its first overt

        move.  These conspirators plan to create a dictatorship in the

        United States, suspend our Constitution and attempt to confiscate

        all guns and firearms in American homes.  Stage 1 being to create

        "race riots" in major U.S. cities such as New York, Chicago,

        Detroit, etc.; these to begin in August.  This will be preceded

        by a month of subliminal programming via TV and other media to

        condition the people for civil war in the United States.  The

        accent will be on rap records such as "Body Count" released by

        Time-Warner (a Rockefeller corporation) by musicians "Ice Tea"

        and "Sister Solj" whose lyrics in such songs as "Cop Killers" are

        designed to inflame and polarize its listeners.  These rap songs

        contain such lines as "kill white policemen," "kill the pigs",

        "kill whitey", and "Why not kill whitey, if he can kill us?" etc.



        In August Stage 2, code-named "Operation Hot August Nights" will

        take effect.  Special agents of the conspiracy, masquerading as

        police, will open fire on minorities, namely Black Americans and

        Hispanics and orientals.  Other agents will set off incendiary

        bombs as they did recently in the Los Angeles riots, which essen-

        tially was a "test case" that surpassed the expectations of the

        conspirators.  These special agents, masquerading as police,

        massacre these Blacks and minorities and fire at the real police-

        men.  This brings in more police and the riots escalate.  "Skin

        heads" and other gangs, already fully armed, join in the fray.

        The real police, vastly outnumbered, cannot handle the rioting.

        The National Guard is called in and fired upon by these special

        agents masquerading as gang members, who also enlist other gang

        members to fight the police and national guardsmen.  These riots

        continue through August, with many minority Americans slaughtered

        in major cities.



        State 3:  In September, President Bush calls in United Nations

        troops to quash the riots and restore law and order.  American

        troops had indicated they did not wish to fight against American

        civilians.  Bush executes Executive Orders, already in effect,

        which now give the UN forces complete rights and freedom to enter

        American homes, to confiscate all devices that are capable of

        communicating information, which includes video cameras, VCRs,

        computers, mimeographs, anything that can print, copy machines,

        etc.  These troops are furnished certain lists of names, particu-

        larly those know as "Patriots" and these patriots and their

        families are rounded up first, and if not executed on the spot,

        are sent to any of the 13 concentration camps now fully activated

        in the United States.  There is nobody left to tell what really

        happened.  Curious neighbors will be told it was a justified

        "drug raid."  Those who escape to the hills and mountains are

        hunted down by 'search and destroy' troops, specially trained for

        mountain warfare.  During September all borders will be closed

        down, as well as airports.  No one is allowed to leave the United

        States.



        Stage 4:  In October an "official" announcement will be carried

        live on TV, that extraterrestrial aliens, probably Zeta Reticuli

        'Greys' have invaded the Earth, with some actual aliens

        introduced on the show.  (This is actually a fake invasion).  The

        aliens have been on Earth for many years, made treaties and

        agreements with our governments; there are millions of them in

        secret underground complexes such as Dulce, New Mexico, which are

        responsible for the abduction of American children and citizens

        and the cattle mutilations documented in books and on TV, such as

        the recent special "Intruders".  This announcement will cause the

        entire world to mobilize under UN supervision to fight the 'inva-

        ders'.



        During November the chaos continues and more UN troops pour into

        the United States, mostly mercenaries who have fought in African

        nations and other 'hot spots' previously.  (The butchery of these

        troops is well documented).



        Stage 5:  In December a well-planned "crash" of the stock market

        will occur, a dramatic drop to at least 1500 on the DJ Industrial

        Average.  This event planned to further weaken, panic and confuse

        the population.



        Stage 6:  In February or March, 1993, President Bush will be

        assassinated by the conspirators and Vice President Dan Quayle

        will become President of the United States (this an option if

        Bush moves too slowly).  The Constitution of the United States is

        suspended and the people are now living under martial law in a

        totally fascist state.



        Who are these conspirators?  According to Mike Younger, at the

        end of World War II, Nelson Rockefeller brought 3000 high Nazi

        party officials from Germany illegally into the U.S., without

        permission.  As of today it is believed there are now 1.6 million

        Nazis in the U.S., many high in government and major corpora-

        tions, such as Atlantic Richfield in New Jersey.  Incredibly,

        these Nazi fascists are attempting to set up a "4th Reich" to

        continue the thousand-year plan of Adolph Hitler, with eventual

        intent to eliminate "non Aryan" people such as Jews, Blacks and

        other 'dissidents'.  In January, 2000, when the "real" alien

        invasion occurs, the planet will be officially turned over to the

        alien invaders, the Nazi rulers expecting to get 25% of the Earth

        for themselves.



        The writers of this document did not originate the above

        material, but are simply passing this information along to you to

        do with what you feel is necessary.  We have no way of knowing

        that these things will happen (we hope and pray they do not), but

        if any of the above should occur, you can rest assured the bal-

        ance of this evil scenario will follow.  Their two main immediate

        goals are to disarm American citizens and suspend our Constitu-

        tion.



        URGENT:  MAKE 30 COPIES AND MAIL TO MEDIA, POLITICIANS, CHURCHES,

        ORGANIZATIONS.  POST ON BULLETIN BOARDS, PASS OUT TO CITIZENS IN

        THE STREETS!  TIME IS RUNNING OUT!  ACT NOW!





------------------------------------------------------------------------



Don








--
-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Tavistock + Esalen = "New Age"
Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Rothschild + Rockefeller = FED
UUCP: .uunet!peora!bilver!vicstoy!dona  | UN + Maitreya = "Twilight Zone"
"A democracy cannot be both ignorant and free"  - Thomas Jefferson
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!wupost!waikato.ac.nz!aukuni.ac.nz!kcbbs!kc
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: John_-_Winston Poll
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (Robert Sutton)
Date: 31 Jul 92 09:01:01 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Kappa Crucis Unix BBS, Auckland, New Zealand
Lines: 8

Is this alt.John.visitors?

**********************************
ARE ETOI SPACESHIPS SHY
OR ARE THEY JUST WAITING
TO SEAL THE ROYALTY DEAL?
**********************************

Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!wupost!waikato.ac.nz!aukuni.ac.nz!kcbbs!kc
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Spaceships Beyond Our Ken(was Re:Ela
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (Robert Sutton)
Date: 31 Jul 92 09:28:16 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Kappa Crucis Unix BBS, Auckland, New Zealand
Lines: 25

[e-mail](Thad .P Floryan) wed 29Jul92 05:34:10 types--
>Finally what evidence can be presented showing a planet named "tau
>ceti" orbits Tau Ceti.

Well tau ceti is smaller than Tau Ceti so can their be any doubt?.
After all it's a small world after all.

But semantically seriously though if Tau Ceti(maybe that should be something
around it) is on the MOP list then NASA at least thinks their's at least
1 planet lurkuing around their(or else some transmitter from somewhere
else) so it's maybe worth pointing HST over there if COSTAR is a goer.
Despite no reported success from Project Ozma since it' may still be
a popular choice.

BTW-Does anyone know of a good source for keeping up with whats going
on with the NASA SETI MOP?.
All I see & hear is very vacous.

Anyway maybe it was another pentagon.
******************************************
ARE ETOI SPACESHIPS SHY
OR ARE THEY JUST WAITING
TO SEAL THE ROYALTY DEAL?
******************************************************************************

Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!wupost!waikato.ac.nz!aukuni.ac.nz!kcbbs!kc
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Get Off John's Back Please!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (Robert Sutton)
Date: 31 Jul 92 09:46:49 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Kappa Crucis Unix BBS, Auckland, New Zealand
Lines: 14

timpson.acetek.enet.dec.com 29/jul 1992 18///////;52/;19 types--
>It's not a matter of freedom of......
                                      (censored)
Maybe it'as a freedom of type (0s)

      & what about Freedom of it for Aliens?

************************************
ARE ETOI SPACESHIPS SHY
OR ARE THEY JUST WAITING
TO SEAL THE ROYALTY DEAL?
**************************************************************************8


Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7727 alt.politics.kibo:26 alt.religion.kibology:3278
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.politics.kibo,alt.religion.kibology
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!eff!world!kibo
From: [e-mail] (James "Kibo" Parry)
Subject: Re: Alien endorses Clinton!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: alt.politics.kibo
Organization: Between a rock and a type specimen sheet, Boston.
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 04:22:36 GMT
Lines: 12

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Charles Blair) writes:
>   No kidding!  Check the tabloid counter at your supermarket.

Big fat hairy deal!  There's one candidate who is not only endorsed by
strange beings from other dimensions, but he is one himself.  Yes,
America needs an enema, and Kibo is just the man to administer it!  Vote
for Kibo!  Vote early, and vote often!

Shirts, stickers, and buttons will be available Real Soon Now.

                        -- K.

Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!bcstec!kuryakin
From: [e-mail] (Rick Pavek)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: John_-_Winston Poll
Keywords: Get a clue numb----.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 30 Jul 92 23:58:22 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Boeing
Lines: 35

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Mike Austin) writes:
>
>To hell with a poll, sic the network police on him now!
>
....stuff deleted
>
>I repeat, knock this crap off!  Now!
>
>_____________________________________________________________
>Mike Austin (contractor)   | There is no greater urge than
>IBM Austin, PSPA (AIX IDD) | to change someone else's copy.
>[phone]             |

Fanning the flames only make them worse.  Besides, is this the
attitude you want people on the net to see?  Is this how IBM
approaches a problem?  Even if he were a complete moron, the only
way you'll change anything is to explain to him what the problem
is and how to change it.  Yelling at him, electronically or
otherwise, isn't going to convince him to fix the problem.

Speaking of Ley Lines...  what was the name of the paperbook published
back in the 70's?  I don't have a copy anymore and I'd like to find
one in reasonable shape.  It would help to find the name and the
author.

Also, If anyone in GB has a copy of that article on the Aurora that
was published a few days ago, I sure would like a copy.

Rick

--
Rick Pavek                            | Never ask a droid to outdo its program.
[e-mail]            |
AppleLink:  kuryakin                  | It wastes your time
[e-mail]    |          and annoys the droid.
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Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!dtix!darwin.sura.net!jvnc.net!phage!pjm
From: [e-mail] (Pat Monardo)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,alt.activism,sci.skeptic,misc.headlines,alt.politics.bush
Subject: Re: UFO "October Surprise" and USA TAKEOVER?!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 Jul 92 05:04:23 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (NO MAIL)
Organization: Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory
Lines: 9

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Don Allen) writes:
>[bogus conspiracy, alien invasion story]

this can't be serious because alt.religion.kibology wasn't included in the
newsgroups where it would easily be shown to contradict sacred scripture.

--
-- Pat Monardo
-- [e-mail]
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Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,alt.activism,sci.skeptic,mi
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mnemosyne.cs.du.edu!nyx!arsmith
From: [e-mail] (Alan Smith)
Subject: Re: UFO "October Surprise" and USA TAKEOVER?!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
    of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
    control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Sender: [e-mail] (netnews admin account)
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 06:39:00 GMT
Lines: 10


It's a Joke.  Ice T (That's his name, not "Ice Tea," That's something you
drink) pulled "Cop Killer" out of sales.  This wouldn't be consistant with
the plan.

Besides, I think everybody would be more than a little pissed if Bush
brought foreign troops onto american soil to quell the american people.
Like, "Time to start the Revolution," pissed.

Big Al.  Now, where did I put that bomb?
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From: [e-mail] (Raymond Shaw)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Orgone Energy
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 Jul 92 07:47:24 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world
Lines: 43

> [e-mail] writes:
>
> Msg-ID: <[e-mail]>
> Posted: 30 Jul 92 01:16:12 GMT
>
> My Digital Webster dictionary defines "orgone energy" as:
>
> or gone \'o (e)r-,go n\ n
> [prob. fr. orgasm + -one (as in hormone)]
> (1942)
> :a vital energy held to pervade nature and to be made available for use by
>  the human body by sitting in a specially designed box
>
> Okay, I give.  What's the story here?
> (...and where can I get one of them BOXES!!!)
>


Hello Mark,

        If you're really interested in this subject, I suggest you read some of
Wilhelm Reich's books.  Reich was responsible for the "theory" of orgone energy
and the development of the "orgone accumulator" -- the "box" to which you
refer.
        An interesting note to this subject is the fact that Reich was a
contemporary of Freud, but branched out into his own line of investigation
which led to his discovery of orgone energy.  He developed a box which had the
ability to "collect and trap" orgone energy.  He found that when people were
exposed to the energy, they experienced increased vitality.  He subsquently
began using it in his practice (he was a psychiatrist).  He eventually ended up
in the USA where he started to distribute various sizes of orgone accumulators
until the FDA decided they contravened American law and Reich was then
imprisoned where he died shortly thereafter.  All the orgone accumlators in the
USA were "rounded up" and destroyed, even though many people had experienced
extraordinary cures to various diseases, including cancer.  In his will, Reich
left instructions that his writings be held back from the general public for 50
years.  Reich died in 1957.
        Among his books in print, there is one which is a compilation of his
various works (I found this one in my local library, sorry I can't remember the
title) in which details are given on how to build your own orgone accumlator.
        Hope this helps.

                        Raymond Shaw.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!wupost!tulane!darwin.sura.net!mlb.semi.harris.com!rtfm.mlb.fl.us!john
From: [e-mail] (John Blasik)
Subject: Re: A question for John_-_Winston
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: We don't need no stinkin' batches!
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 07:29:01 GMT
Lines: 13

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Hassan B. Multu  ...
  .
  .
  .
>not too many years ago. I can say without a hesitation that I'm not
>him.
>John Winston.

Yea, we know. Some people have actually gotten e-mail from multu.

-- john

Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7733 alt.conspiracy:17229 alt.activism:30198 sci.skeptic:28148 misc.headlines:23005 alt.politics.bush:1054
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,alt.activism,sci.skeptic,misc.headlines,alt.politics.bush
Subject: Re: UFO "October Surprise" and USA TAKEOVER?!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 Jul 92 13:12:31 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail] ()
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 20


    YYYYAAAAWWWWWNNNNN!


    Steve Food_for_the_Greys




--
        -----------------------------------------------------------------
        |                                                               |
        |  My atheism, like that of Spinoza, is true piety towards the  |
        |  universe and denies only gods fashioned by men in their own  |
        |  image to be servants of their human interests.               |
        |                                                               |
        |                                  -- George Santayana          |
        |                                                               |
        -----------------------------------------------------------------

Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Get Off John's Back Please!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 06:11:21 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

Dear Follow Earth Beings:
I still have no time to post. I was taken on a tour of Channel 9 PBS
TVs new facility last evening (in San Francisco).
John Winston.
Xref: news.uiowa.edu sci.skeptic:28156 alt.alien.visitors:7735
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Robert McGrath)
Subject: Re: Men In Black
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News Database (admin-Mike Schwager))
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 15:03:40 GMT
Lines: 11

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew) writes in part:
|> ... playing with people's heads is dangerous stuff.  Be careful.
|>
|> Charles
I would amplify this:  playing with people's heads is dangerous stuff.
DON'T DO IT.

--
  Robert E. McGrath
  Urbana Illinois
  [e-mail]
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From: [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: test
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 Jul 92 15:37:16 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (Net News)
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
Lines: 8
Nntp-Posting-Host: slugo.corp.sgi.com

test please ignore
--
Rod Beckwith     |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Datacom I/S      |"The great obstacle of progress is not ignorance,
[e-mail]|but the illusion of knowledge



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From: [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Is Bigfoot a Visitor?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 Jul 92 15:40:25 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <d!qmtx#[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Net News)
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
Lines: 86
Nntp-Posting-Host: slugo.corp.sgi.com

>
>What happened next was one of a few strange things that has happened to
me
>in my life.I'm not sure exactly what time it was but it was
pre-sunrise(you
>know when the sun has not come up over the horizen but the light begins
to
>dominate over  the darkness.Well like I said , I never wake up but that
>morning I woke out of a dead sleep & sat strait UP! Looked out of the
>screen door to see to my amazement
>7-10' creature standing about 5-6' away......staring at me.I could not
>really see its eyes but it was apparently facing my direction. I then
>rubbed my eyes violently & took a second look.....HOLY SHIT this thing is
>still standing there motionless.Boy the butterflies in my stomach felt
like
>bats racing through my innards,man was I scared.I could see the outline
of
>hair all over its body,(like Chewbacca from Star Wars)except for its
legs.
>The legs were covered with
>scales/plates or body armor type stuff,it was not light enough to get a
>real
>good look at it..too strange. I then after about what seemed like forever
>(probably more like 30 seconds) I turned to my X and tried to wake her up
>to see this thing. She would not wake up & I shook her pretty good.
Finally
>she came around but she was really groggy. I then turned back around to
>show her this thing but it was G-O-N-E. No sound of footsteps or
>anything....just gone. My X was not to happy that I woke her up & went
back
>to sleep. I ,on the other had was pretty shook up. I didn't like the idea
>that a BIG critter could just materialize in our campsite & then just
>vanish. I never got the feeling it was trying to communicate with me or
>anything like that. I did not get up to go & check it out,,which was
>strange cause normally I am a curious person.I finally made it back to
>sleep.What a night!!

>>A classic description of a hypnogogic (or is is hypnopompic?) vision,
>>a hallucination that occurs at the boundary between sleep and
wakefulness.
>>Sometimes the visions of the dream state and the background of the
>>wakeful state become superimposed, for just a few seconds. Relax,
>>you're perfectly normal - plenty of people have had experiences like
this.

>>I think that a lot of the "night abductors" are visions of this same
>>sort. The mind provides the scary image, prompting the viewer to contact
>>Budd Hopkins, and he "leads" them to fill in the rest.

--

        >>Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]


Dear Mr. Closemindicus cause it has never happened to Himicus,

You always seem to have a pat explanation for everything.You were not
there,so I can't see how you can postulate such an irresponsible & ignorant
speculation. I was fully awake genius. I can tell the difference between
reality & a dream,although I don't think you will wake up from your
personal nightmare!

From the evidence I have seen sir,you are not a skeptic.......but a person
who will deny anything that does not fit into the glass house you call
reality.The day might come where a rock might be thrown in your general
direction.....are you ready? As the glass shatters & crumbles around you,
will you hold together or put a gun to your head? Only time will
tell...........

Like I have said to you before Robert.......

"Feel not the comfort of your slumber,for when you awaken ,it may be too
late"

R.I.P.

Rod

--
Rod Beckwith     |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Datacom I/S      |"The great obstacle of progress is not ignorance,
[e-mail]|but the illusion of knowledge."
                 |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$



Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!walter!phelix!mdl
From: mdl@phelixsalt (Michael Lynch)
Subject: Re: Is Bigfoot a Visitor?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: phelix.bellcore.com
Reply-To: mdl@phelixsalt (Michael Lynch)
Organization: Bellcore
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <d!qmtx#[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 16:09:56 GMT
Lines: 75

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith) writes:
|> >
|> >What happened next was one of a few strange things that has happened to
|> me
|> >inmy life.I'm not sure exactly what time it was but it was
|> pre-sunrise(you
| >know when the sun has not come up over the horizen but the light begins
|> to
|> >dominate over  the darkness.Well like I said , I never wake up but that
|> >morning I woke out of a dead sleep & sat strait UP! Looked out of the
|> >screen door to see to my amazement
|> >7-10' creature standing
       .......................

|>
|> >>A classic description of a hypnogogic (or is is hypnopompic?) vision,
|> >>a hallucination that occurs at the boundary between sleep and
|> wakeflness
|> >>Sometimes the visions of the dream state and the background of the
|> >>wakeful state become superimposed, for just a few seconds. Relax,
|> >>you're perfectly normal - plenty of people have had experiences like
|> this.
|>
|> >>I think that a lot of the "night abductors" are visions of this same
|> >>sort. The mind provides the scary image, prompting the viewer to contact
|> >>Budd Hopkins, and he "leads" them to fill in the rest.
|>
|> --
|>
|>         >>Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]
|>
|>
|> Dear Mr. Closemindicus cause it has never happened to Himicus,
|>
|> You always seem to have a pat explanation for everything.You were not
|> there,so I can't see how you can postulate such an irresponsible & ignorant
|> speculation. I was fully awake genius. I can tell the difference between
|> reality & a dream,although I don't think you will wake up from your
|> personal nightmare!
|>
|> From the evidence I have seen sir,you are not a skeptic.......but a person
|> who will deny anything that does not fit into the glass house you call
|> reality.The day might come where a rock might be thrown in your general
|> direction.....are you ready? As the glass shatters & crumbles around you,
|> will you hold together or put a gun to your head? Only time will
|> tell...........
|>
|> Like I have said to you before Robert.......
|>
|> "Feel not the comfort of your slumber,for when you awaken ,it may be too
|> late"
|>
|> R.I.P.
|>
|> Rod
|>
|> --
|> Rod Beckwith     |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
|> Datacom I/S      |"The great obstacle of progress is not ignorance,
|> [e-mail]|but the illusion of knowledge."
|>                  |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
|>
|>
|>

 Robert Sheaffer's response was a calmly rational alternative explanation
for that night's events.  It's important that we keep open minds and remain
receptive to all arguments, whether they agree with our stand or not.

Rod Beckwith's attack on Robert, however, was as incoherent as it was hysterical.

Rod, I suggest that you read the quote in your sig.  Pay particular attention
to the word "illusion."

Mike Lynch
Path: news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!mips!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!linac!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!agate!boulder!ucsu!cubldr.colorado.edu!matthews_k
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Alien endorses Clinton!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 Jul 92 16:50:18 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <c![e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Lines: 23
Nntp-Posting-Host: gold.colorado.edu

In article <c![e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Ithlial the Archer) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Charles Blair) writes:
>>   No kidding!  Check the tabloid counter at your supermarket.
>
> I guess now that Perot has dropped out the greys have to endorse Clinton!?!?
> The question is what do they have against Bush/Quayle?
>
> Ithlial

> morbid stuff deleted...

> *a quotation from:  Jim Harvey
> *           [e-mail]


I assume this is a rhetorical question.... :-)

by the way, what on earth prompted you to post that nasty little quote
in your sig file?  If I want to read about people dying horrifically
I'll read alt.slasher.kill.maim

Kellie Matthews-Simmons
internet [e-mail]
Xref: news.uiowa.edu talk.religion.newage:11057 alt.alien.visitors:7740 sci.skeptic:28165
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!noc.near.net!hri.com!merrimack.edu!caina
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Get Off John's Back Please!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 Jul 92 13:13:31 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Merrimack College, No. Andover, MA, USA
Lines: 38

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Denise Solis) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Dan Hillman) writes:
>>
>>Dear John,
>>
>>Your (sic) right; I fudge my Levis in glee every time I see one of
>>you're (sic) posts.
>>
>>I am amazed that fully half of the traffic of this newsgroup is comprised
>>of your three-line messages ("I'm having an astral wank, everybody!"),
>>empty posts (" "), and one-screen text dumps.
>>
>>Call me a skeptic, but I would think an intelligent life form who
>>wanted information distributed would get in touch with someone who had
>>a clue.
>>
>
>
>    Come on guys! Give the guy a break. I know John and he's a really
>    nice man. If you don'l like his posts then skip them. But geeze
>    why so hostile? Freedom of speech is for everyone not just the
>    people you agree with!
>
>                                   Denise
>
>
>
> --
> =========================================================================
>>>>>>>>>>>>||      Copyright (c) Denise faith Solis 1992    ||<<<<<<<<<<<
>>>>>>>>>>>>||             [e-mail]         ||<<<<<<<<<<<
> =========================================================================

   Likewise, we have the freedom of speech to criticize whomever we want,
whenever we want.  Likewise, we have the right to say whatever we want.
Just as you do.

AC
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!wupost!gumby!destroyer!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!sal.wisc.edu!rat!zeus!swoodwar
From: [e-mail] (Null Cypher)
Subject: Re: Is Bigfoot a Visitor?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Void-Tech Illumination Research, Inc.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <d!qmtx#[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 15:47:53 GMT
Lines: 24

[e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer) had the unmitigated audacity to say:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith) writes:
>>
>> [story deleted]
>
>A classic description of a hypnogogic (or is is hypnopompic?) vision,
>a hallucination that occurs at the boundary between sleep and wakefulness.
>Sometimes the visions of the dream state and the background of the
>wakeful state become superimposed, for just a few seconds. Relax,
>you're perfectly normal - plenty of people have had experiences like this.
>
Of course - any data that does not conform to one's belief system is
necessarily a hallucination (if not an outright lie).
>
>--
>
>        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]

I bet.

--
------------------  fjbbqjne ng qrzrgre qbg pnycbyl qbg rqh  ------------------
   Gur bayl checbfr bs guvf fvtangher vf gb trg crbcyr gb ebg-guvegrra vg...
                 Qvq V rire fnl vg jnf tbvat gb or jbegujuvyr?
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!usc!sdd.hp.com!mips!odin!slugo.corp.sgi.com!rodb
From: [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith)
Subject: Re: Is Bigfoot a Visitor?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Net News)
Nntp-Posting-Host: slugo.corp.sgi.com
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <d!qmtx#[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 18:06:26 GMT
Lines: 130

(Rod Beckwith) writes:
|> >
|> >What happened next was one of a few strange things that has happened
|> to
|> me
|> >inmy life.I'm not sure exactly what time it was but it was
|> pre-sunrise(you
| >know when the sun has not come up over the horizen but the light begins
|> to
|> >dominate over  the darkness.Well like I said , I never wake up but
|> that
|> >morning I woke out of a dead sleep & sat strait UP! Looked out of the
|> >screen door to see to my amazement
|> >7-10' creature standing
       .......................

|>
|> >>A classic description of a hypnogogic (or is is hypnopompic?) vision,
|> >>a hallucination that occurs at the boundary between sleep and
|> wakeflness
|> >>Sometimes the visions of the dream state and the background of the
|> >>wakeful state become superimposed, for just a few seconds. Relax,
|> >>you're perfectly normal - plenty of people have had experiences like
|> this.
|>
|> >>I think that a lot of the "night abductors" are visions of this same
|> >>sort. The mind provides the scary image, prompting the viewer to
|> contact
|> >>Budd Hopkins, and he "leads" them to fill in the rest.
|>
|> --
|>
|>         >>Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]
|>
|>
|> Dear Mr. Closemindicus cause it has never happened to Himicus,
|>
|> You always seem to have a pat explanation for everything.You were not
|> there,so I can't see how you can postulate such an irresponsible &
|> ignorant
|> speculation. I was fully awake genius. I can tell the difference
|> between
|> reality & a dream,although I don't think you will wake up from your
|> personal nightmare!
|>
|> From the evidence I have seen sir,you are not a skeptic.......but a
|> person
|> who will deny anything that does not fit into the glass house you call
|> reality.The day might come where a rock might be thrown in your general
|> direction.....are you ready? As the glass shatters & crumbles around
|> you,
|> will you hold together or put a gun to your head? Only time will
|> tell...........
|>
|> Like I have said to you before Robert.......
|>
|> "Feel not the comfort of your slumber,for when you awaken ,it may be
|> too
|> late"
|>
|> R.I.P.
|>
|> Rod
|>
|> --
|> Rod Beckwith     |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
|> Datacom I/S      |"The great obstacle of progress is not ignorance,
|> [e-mail]|but the illusion of knowledge."
|>                  |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
|>
|>
|>

>>> Robert Sheaffer's response was a calmly rational alternative
explanation
>>>for that night's events.  It's important that we keep open minds and
remain
>>>receptive to all arguments, whether they agree with our stand or not.

>>>Rod Beckwith's attack on Robert, however, was as incoherent as it was
>>>hysterical.

>>>Rod, I suggest that you read the quote in your sig.  Pay particular
attention
>>>to the word "illusion."

>>>Mike Lynch

Mr. Lynch,

I did not tell my story to have some 2bit SKEPTIC tell me that I was
hallucinating or having an illusion.Assuring me that that I was normal,HA!
Gee thanks!Remeber he drew first blood by chastizing the account of my
experience.

I truly hope that someday that something quite odd happens to one of
you,then after you clean your shorts & had time to think about it you might
just realize that not everything is explainable by science &
rationality.But then who do you tell? They (meaning people like Scepticus)
will ridicule ya & write you off like it never happened. What then? Go see
a shrink cause it's all in your
head. After the shrink has convinced you that you hated you mothers cats'
fleas feces you can go on in life & live happily ever after, knowing that
it was just a hallucination.What a relief,phew! It never happened......

 The only "illusion" I see here DENIAL,DENIAL,DENIAL.

It reminds me of a scene from the movie ALIENS when Newt asks Riply why
parents
tell their kids there are no monsters & she (Riply) says,"cause most of the
time
it's true." The key here is MOST of the time,not ALL of the time. Life is
stranger than fiction fellows......get a clue!

BTW ,Mike since when are you the founding member of the Scepticus Maximus
fan club?

Rod



--
Rod Beckwith     |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Datacom I/S      |"The great obstacle of progress is not ignorance,
[e-mail]|but the illusion of knowledge."
                 |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$




Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!uknet!warwick!nott-cs!epc
From: [e-mail] (Elvis Presley's Corpse)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Orgone Energy
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 Jul 92 17:03:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Nottingham University
Lines: 10

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Raymond
Shaw) writes:
> All the orgone accumlators in the USA were "rounded up" and destroyed,
> even though many people had experienced extraordinary cures to various
> diseases, including cancer.  In his will, Reich left instructions that
> his writings be held back from the general public for 50 years.  Reich
> died in 1957.

I heard the US government rounded up and destroyed most of his
writings as well as the accumulators.  Anyone know any more about this?
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!sunic!liuida!isy!isy!stefang
From: [e-mail] (Stefan Gustavson)
Subject: Re: Orgone Energy
Message-ID: <stefang.712575664@isy>
Sender: [e-mail] (Lord of the News)
Organization: Dept of EE, University of Linkoping
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 Jul 92 09:41:04 GMT
Lines: 104

[e-mail] (Raymond Shaw) writes:

>Hello Mark,

>        If you're really interested in this subject, I suggest you read some of
>Wilhelm Reich's books.  Reich was responsible for the "theory" of orgone energy
                                                       ^^^^^^^^
Yeah, right. "Theory". Well-placed quotation marks.

>and the development of the "orgone accumulator" -- the "box" to which you
>refer.
>        An interesting note to this subject is the fact that Reich was a
>contemporary of Freud, but branched out into his own line of investigation
                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That is, went nuts. Poor chap.

>which led to his discovery of orgone energy.  He developed a box which had the
>ability to "collect and trap" orgone energy.  He found that when people were
>exposed to the energy, they experienced increased vitality.  He subsquently
>began using it in his practice (he was a psychiatrist).  He eventually ended up
>in the USA where he started to distribute various sizes of orgone accumulators
 ^^^^^^^^^^
How come all these weirdos end up in the USA?

>until the FDA decided they contravened American law and Reich was then
                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That is, the advertising and selling of these things was a complete fraud.

>imprisoned where he died shortly thereafter.  All the orgone accumlators in the
>USA were "rounded up" and destroyed, even though many people had experienced
           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Do you really believe this? Were they considered 'communistic' or something?
I think they just ended up in the junk yard because they didn't work.

>extraordinary cures to various diseases, including cancer.  In his will, Reich
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This one is classic. Get real, will you? The cure for cancer is successfully
withheld from the public? And a government conspiracy covered it up? Gee.

>left instructions that his writings be held back from the general public for 50
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Oh. How conveeeenient! Who is holding it back? For what reason? How come
the government didn't just destroy the information along with the devices?

>years.  Reich died in 1957.
>        Among his books in print, there is one which is a compilation of his
>various works (I found this one in my local library, sorry I can't remember the
>title) in which details are given on how to build your own orgone accumlator.
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
First you say they are illegal and that someone went through the trouble to
find every single one of them and have them destroyed. Then you say you
found detailed instructions on how to build one of your own in a book
in your local library? Do you expect anybody to believe anything of
what you've said?

>        Hope this helps.
>                        Raymond Shaw.

There are things which are hard to explain, but this is most certainly not
one of those things. Anybody believing crap like this is the true dream of
dictators and scientific and pseudo-religious charlatans everywhere.
"I read this in a really expensive-looking book, so it must be true." Huh?
If you must believe in lies, at least pick some fresh ones that have not
been laughed at for decades already.

        /Stefan Gustavson ([e-mail])


This could be considered a personal flame, but it is not intended to be.
It is intended to be a general public flame to everybody being enough
stupid to consider scepticism a bad thing.
Believe in what you want, but see to it that you have some reason for it!

If you didn't like my opinions above, please take these instead:

I have (inofficial) contacts in the CIA, and I can tell you that Wilhelm Reich
was a Nazi sent over to the USA to spread non-American ideology among the
good American people. One of his achievements was to disguise as a shrink and
hypnotize his patients into believing in unhealthy ideals. The effect of the
hypnosis was maintained through several years through the clever use of a
meditational device called "the orgone energy accumulator". This was a small
box in which the patients would sit and unknowingly do a sort of autohypnosis.
The patients were also hypnotized to think they experienced increased vitality.
The wife of a hypnotized man figured something was wrong, and the CIA took him
in for questioning. The plot was discovered, Reich was imprisoned and dozens
of patients had to be de-programmed. The boxes were confiscated and destroyed.
Some of his patients managed to escape, and to this day there are secret
fractions all over the USA sitting in their boxes twice a day and continuing
to covertly spread the Nazi propaganda of Herr Doktor Wilhelm Reich.
Some of this propaganda is diguised as pseudo-scientific reviews of Reich's
works and secretly planted in libraries everywhere. Apparently, this is what
you have gotten hold of.

DO NOT READ THIS BOOK! It contains massive subliminal programming messages
that can actually lure you into non-American thinking. You are tricked to
believe that the CIA is involved in a massive cover-up of the true nature
of this incident, and that the theories of orgone energy are actually true.
The CIA is really trying to hunt these people down, but with little result.

(Author's name withheld for reasons of personal security)

--------
DISCLAIMER: This is not a government cover-up of any kind.
            This is the truth. Honestly.
Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7745 alt.conspiracy:17236 alt.activism:30213 sci.skeptic:28174 misc.headlines:23010 alt.politics.bush:1084
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From: [e-mail] (Duane P Mantick)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,alt.activism,sci.skeptic,misc.headlines,alt.politics.bush
Subject: Re: UFO "October Surprise" and USA TAKEOVER?!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 Jul 92 19:14:33 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET news)
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Lines: 7


[gobbledeegook deleted]

That was, without a doubt, the biggest bunch of pure manure I have read
ANYwhere on ANY newsgroup.....

Duane
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From: [e-mail] (Guy Moreillon)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Get Off John's Back Please!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 Jul 92 09:36:29 GMT
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Ecole Polytechnique Federale de Lausanne
Lines: 8
Nntp-Posting-Host: disun40.epfl.ch

Yeah, guys, get off David Vincent's... er... John's back !
I get my kicks reading this guy's postings.
It sure beats Star Trek.

--
Guy Moreillon                -- Oh my God, It's full of Stars...
[e-mail]        -- Dave Bowman
[e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Steve Warren)
Subject: Re: Orgone Energy
Sender: [e-mail] (news access account)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 20:19:52 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <stefang.712575664@isy>
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              not necessarily those of CONVEX.
Lines: 16

In article <stefang.712575664@isy> [e-mail] (Stefan Gustavson) writes:
                                 [...]
>This could be considered a personal flame, but it is not intended to be.
>It is intended to be a general public flame to everybody being enough
>stupid to consider scepticism a bad thing.

If you are really so proud of your scepticism (sic) you should at
least learn how to spell it!   ;^)

If you are a sceptic, then you must be flaming the antisceptics!

--
            _.
--Steve   ._||__    Welcome to the World's First GaAs Supercomputer
  Warren   v\ *|    -----------------------------------------------
             V
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From: [e-mail] (Jean-Marc Vezien)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Is Bigfoot a Visitor?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 Jul 92 20:18:29 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <d!qmtx#[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
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Nntp-Posting-Host: grip.cis.upenn.edu


Rod,

I usually don't feel the urge to post in this group,
but this time I'd like to enter the thread, just to say:

cool down.


Sentences like "He drew blood first.." won't lead us very far.
Let's examine the facts, ok ? You told us how you woke up
once and saw a strange looking creature in front of you.
It seems logical, under the circumstances to ask "Could
it be a dream ?" "Were you fully awake ?".You say:

|>I was fully awake genius. I can tell the difference
|> between
|> reality & a dream.


Unfortunately, as many people could tell you, some dream
look terribly real (I've dreamed I was waking up and something
terrible, like my parents'death, was occuring. Looked TERRIBLY real,
let me tell you). I'm NOT saying you were dreaming, it is just a POSSIBILITY.


It could also be an alien.

Or a stupid joke.


As usual, it's normal to try the most plausible explanation first,
and in your case, hypnogogic vision is the most plausible.
(As it was said, it's a very common phenomenon. Aliens stepping in
average citizens' bedroom is VERY rare, indeed). Of
course, nothing is sure. But nobody DENIES you saw something.

I remember one day in summer, I was around 10, I was looking at the
afternoon blu sky. I spotted a "jet plane", following the tiny object
along a linear progression. I told my mom, "look at the jet",
I turned back to spot the plane again, I found it flying...
exactly orthogonally to its previous direction !  Of course, nobody
can believe that, and I've come up to several rationnal explanations.
It still could be an UFO, but it's very unlikely.
It is also very unlikely, although nobody can "prove" it, that
you just had some kind of dreamish hallucination.


JM.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Abduction claims
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 28
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: gold.colorado.edu
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 22:09:18 GMT
Lines: 28

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gregg Brown) writes:
>>
>>So, Mr. Skeptic, what is your explanation for the supposed "abductees"
>>regression statements that so many "UFO" writers are standing by? I was
>>just complaining to a co-worker this morning that is about half way through
>>Budd Hopkins' book "Intruders", as I am, that there is no middle ground in this
>>subject called UFO/UFO abductions/Alien Visitors. Scientific men completely
>>deny any existence but so many people swear its happen(ing)(ed). I am on the
>
> No doubt these people do indeed *claim* such experiences. But just because
> somebody *claims* something happened doesn't mean that it did, and
> sincerity is irrelevant to whether the claim is true or not; all it
> means is that the person *believes* it's true. And anybody can hallucinate.
>
> --
>
>         Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]

This blade cuts precisely both ways. Just because somebody *disclaims* that
something happened doesn't mean that it did not, and sincerity is (still)
irrelevant to whether the disclaimer is true or not: all it means is that
the person *disbelieves*.  It may or may not be true that anybody can
hallucinate; it is indeed true that anybody can be subject to a state of
denial, especially if the material threatens their entrenched belief system.

Lou Crago

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!newsserver.pixel.kodak.com!laidbak!tellab5!jcj
From: [e-mail] (JCJ)
Subject: Re: E.W.- UFO sighted!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (News)
Nntp-Posting-Host: sunl12
Organization: Huh?
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 17:22:24 GMT
Lines: 10

>...
>         SPY PLANE SPARKS SCARE
>A MYSTERIOUS, fast moving shape in the sky has been
>scaring sheep in western Scotland and rattling
>windows in Los Angeles. There are reports of sudden "pulsating roars".
>... Are we to presume that these events have happened simultaneously???
>...

This is Aurora and although it's fast it isn't *that* fast 8-).
See "Aviation Week and Space Technology" for details.
Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7751 alt.conspiracy:17238 alt.activism:30225 sci.skeptic:28189 misc.headlines:23012 alt.politics.bush:1098
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,alt.activism,sci.skeptic,misc.headlines,alt.politics.bush
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!acd4!TEFS1!gvb
From: [e-mail] (Gregg Brown)
Subject: Re: UFO "October Surprise" and USA TAKEOVER?!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 21:22:44 GMT
Lines: 113

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Don Allen) writes:
>
>
>This was sent to me by a friend who typed it up from a bulletin
>
>sent out from the C.A.C. (Cosmic Awareness) group, out in
>
>Washington State. I'm posting it as-is and am asking anyone
>
>who reads it to please take it with a BIG grain of salt. This
>
>info has NOT been verified. Anyone who can verify or refute
>
>it, please have at it. This will be posted to all the UFO
>
>conferences. - Don
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>        ATTENTION:  CIVIL WAR IS ABOUT TO BEGIN IN THE UNITED STATES!
>
>        YOU AND YOUR LOVED ONES ARE IN ACUTE DANGER!  RACE RIOTS AND
>
>        SLAUGHTER OF AMERICANS WILL BE THE FIRST SIGN!
>

Main crapola deleted...

>
>        American homes, to confiscate all devices that are capable of
>
>        communicating information, which includes video cameras, VCRs,
>
>        computers, mimeographs, anything that can print, copy machines,
>
>        etc.  These troops are furnished certain lists of names, particu-
>
>        larly those know as "Patriots" and these patriots and their
>
>        families are rounded up first, and if not executed on the spot,
>
>        are sent to any of the 13 concentration camps now fully activated
>
>        in the United States.  There is nobody left to tell what really

In an armed society such as the USA this will be quite impossible. If anyone
thinks that US citizens won't dust of the old .22 or the 12 gauge, they are
completely wrong. Screw with their freedom, "authorized" gaurdsment or not,
and they will blow a large hole through your frontal lobe, not to mention
your ass!


>        URGENT:  MAKE 30 COPIES AND MAIL TO MEDIA, POLITICIANS, CHURCHES,
>
>        ORGANIZATIONS.  POST ON BULLETIN BOARDS, PASS OUT TO CITIZENS IN
>
>        THE STREETS!  TIME IS RUNNING OUT!  ACT NOW!

Didn't I read this in the Inquirer? After all, I used to shovel bullshit, why
not read a little to. Look folks, this could happen if this country weren't
armed. Fact is over 100 million americans own guns that shoot real bullets.
Going into homes and snatching people's stuff is very dangerouse regardless
whether you are dressed in black OR green. I personally know of at least
10 percent of the people I work with that would hold this country together
in case something like this happened. You can't use 500 thousand troups
to make 100 million "authorized" robberies and expect a reasonable number
to live.

If this worries anybody, here is your peice of mind. First, join the NRA.
Our forefathers knew what they were doing when they said: "The right to
keep and bare arms shall not be infringed". Well, maybe they knew more
than we think? Maybe the first civil war against the south was actually
perpetrated by the greys!!!???

Next, fill the following list:

1 12 gauge shotgun: Remington 870 or equivalent. Full choke.
40 boxes of 2 3/4" ammunition. They come in boxes of 25 so this gives you
1000 rnds. Make sure they are BBs or #2 shot. Kills at <50 yards.
Painful as hell at >100 yards. This is for the idiots that think they can get
close enough to actually knock on your door.

1 30-06 Bolt action rifle. Winchester Mod. 70 / Remington 700 or equivalent.
20 boxes of 30-06/180 grain/softpoint/spitzer/boatail ammunition. Kills
to 1000 yards but you gotta hit them. Sight it in to hit on at 25 yards.
Its 2" high at 100 and on again at 250.

Next, shoot anything that moves. Pay no attention to the white flag. Tell them
that to leave is to make peace.

The list goes on but just remember this: resist. If you will, everybody will.


>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>Don
>
>
>--
>-* Don Allen *-               // Only   | Tavistock + Esalen = "New Age"
>Internet: [e-mail]  \X/ Amiga   | Rothschild + Rockefeller = FED
>UUCP: .uunet!peora!bilver!vicstoy!dona  | UN + Maitreya = "Twilight Zone"
>"A democracy cannot be both ignorant and free"  - Thomas Jefferson

Thanks Don. Appreciate you sending this. I hope too many people don't
really believe this crap.

Gregg.

Xref: news.uiowa.edu talk.religion.newage:11063 alt.alien.visitors:7752 sci.skeptic:28190
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
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From: [e-mail] (Scott M Lackey)
Subject: Re: Get Off John's Back Please!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Sandia National Labs, Org. 1600, Albq., NM
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 22:01:07 GMT
Lines: 41

From article <[e-mail]>, by [e-mail] (Jenny Ballmann):
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] () writes:
>>
>>>   Come on guys! Give the guy a break. I know John and he's a really
>>>   nice man. If you don'l like his posts then skip them. But geeze
>>>   why so hostile? Freedom of speech is for everyone not just the
>>>   people you agree with!
>>
>>>                                  Denise
>>
>>    It's not a question of freedom of speach it's the quality/quantity
>>    of John messages.  It is rediculous and should be tempered.
>>
> He made the top 25 posters by number of articles list.  That's for the
> whole net, folks.  He outdid Mutlu.
>
> Since you know him, Denise, why don't you teach him the difference between
> email and posts, and what he is doing to piss people off?  Can you explain
> to him that these "Dear Dan" type messages are being copied not just to
> "Dan", but to tens of thousands of people, who have to pay in one way or
> another for it?
>
> This is assuming he doesn't know it already, and is not *trying* to look
> clueless.
>
     Not that this will do much good I predict, but could you also
    attempt to explain to him the point of sci.skeptic? A little bit
    about the scientific method and why his postings do not even
    qualify as scientifically meaningful regardless of being right
    or wrong.  I'm not trying to be obnoxious or tell him to leave the
    net, but he has not posted in a way which is appropriate to
    sci.skeptic.    alt.religion.newage yes, but sci.skeptic no.
    If he were to post in a way in which skepticism could be
    realistically applied, I would be glad to have his postings on
    the net, but until then he is just bizarre entertainment and
    there is no reason for him to expect to be treated differently
    than he now is.  I agree that the one posting was excessive, but
    pragmatically, he should expect it to continue if he continues
    to post this way in this newsgroup.

Scott Lackey.
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From: [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith)
Subject: Re: Is Bigfoot a Visitor?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Net News)
Nntp-Posting-Host: slugo.corp.sgi.com
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <d!qmtx#[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1992 00:53:35 GMT
Lines: 34

Jean -Marc,

As I stated in my original post:" I woke out of a dead sleep & sat strait
UP! Looked out of the screen door to see to my amazement 7-10' creature
standing about 5-6' away......staring at me.I could not really see its eyes
but it was apparently facing my direction. I then rubbed my eyes violently
& took a second
                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
look.....HOLY SHIT this thing is still standing there motionless."
                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 Mr. Scepticus for obvious reasons overlooked this point to make his.I
RUBBED MY EYES VERY HARD TO ASSURE WHAT I WAS SEEING WAS REAL!!Waking
dreams do not occur
for that amount of time.I have had some pretty vivid dreams in the past &
no one
can convince me that what I saw was a hallucination or a waking dream!

I don't see Mr. Scepticus wearing kid gloves with anyone in this group or
anywhere else,that's not his way. He recieved exactly what he so richly
deserves & if you or anyone else believe for a minute that he didn't ,you
are entitled to your opinion.

Have a nice weekend:->

Rod "not budging an inch" Beckwith
--
Rod Beckwith     |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Datacom I/S      |"The great obstacle of progress is not ignorance,
[e-mail]|but the illusion of knowledge."
                 |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$




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Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 22:02:23 GMT
Lines: 20


Hello,

I'm new to this group, but have had an interest if UFO's since
childhood.  I'm looking for a copy of Jacque Vallee's book
'Passport to Magonia, from Folktale to UFO's'

send e-mail:


A poor Wayfaring Stranger [some say, a Strange One] in a strange land,

 +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
 | Disclaimer: Not my employer's opinion; probably                     |
 |             not your's either!                                      |
 |                                   Try: [e-mail]   |
 |   first   -->                      or: [e-mail] |
 +---------------------------------------------------------------------+


Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!wupost!gumby!yale!yale.edu!nigel.msen.com!fmsrl7!lynx!umn.edu!i1.msi.umn.edu!frank
From: [e-mail] (Loren Frank)
Subject: Re: Abduction claims
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News Administration)
Nntp-Posting-Host: i1.msi.umn.edu
Organization: University of Minnesota
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1992 02:08:31 GMT
Lines: 67

[e-mail] writes:

>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer) writes:
>> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gregg Brown) writes:
>>>
>>>So, Mr. Skeptic, what is your explanation for the supposed "abductees"
>>>regression statements that so many "UFO" writers are standing by? I was
>>>just complaining to a co-worker this morning that is about half way through
>>>Budd Hopkins' book "Intruders", as I am, that there is no middle ground in this
>>>subject called UFO/UFO abductions/Alien Visitors. Scientific men completely
>>>deny any existence but so many people swear its happen(ing)(ed). I am on the
>>
>> No doubt these people do indeed *claim* such experiences. But just because
>> somebody *claims* something happened doesn't mean that it did, and
>> sincerity is irrelevant to whether the claim is true or not; all it
>> means is that the person *believes* it's true. And anybody can hallucinate.
>>
>> --
>>
>>         Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - [e-mail]

>This blade cuts precisely both ways. Just because somebody *disclaims* that
>something happened doesn't mean that it did not, and sincerity is (still)
>irrelevant to whether the disclaimer is true or not: all it means is that
>the person *disbelieves*.  It may or may not be true that anybody can
>hallucinate; it is indeed true that anybody can be subject to a state of
>denial, especially if the material threatens their entrenched belief system.

>Lou Crago

No it doesn't. Suppose that the scientific community is confronted with
claims of a new phenomenon that is simply not consistent with current theories.
Perhaps someone is claiming that, with the power of their mind alone, they can
lift large object (or bend spoons or whatever). We have a lot evidence that
suggests that the mind IS in a fundamental sense, the brain (brain damage
leading to cognitive deficits, etc.) and we have modern physics. The upshot
of all that is that there is no way, within a set of theories well supported
by the available evidence, that a human being would be capable of such a feat.
That does not mean that she is lying, of course, but rather that the accumulated
evidence from numerous fields implies that she cannot do what she claims. As
such, it is only reasonable to assume that she is lying or deluded or something.
      At the same time, that does not mean that, if there are credible witnesses
who testify to her powers, she should be ignored. The analogy to ufo abducties
is not perfect, but by the same token, it is irresponsible (scientifically) to
accept these people's testimony at face value without any other supporting
evidence, even if, in this case, the claim is not violating a known "law".
The burden of proof does not fall on the scientists who are denying
the phenomenon, but rather on the people who claim that it happened. If your
neighbor tapped you on the shoulder one day with the suprising claim that his
car could fly, but only when no one was looking, I would hope that you would
not immediately believe his statement but rather ask questions and be skeptical
until he gave a damn good explanation of his car's nature.
     I want to make sure that it is clear that I do not deny the possibility
of UFO abductions. It is certainly possible that people have been abducted
by aliens whose belief system is so utterly foreign that their motives are
unclear or just bizarre. It is also possible that I am going straight to hell
because I do not accept Jesus Christ as my personal savior. I am not prepared
to believe either one, nor, I believe, should any self-respecting scientist,
until a lot of evidence that goes beyond personal testimony is presented.
Claiming that scientist's unwillingness to accept personal testimony as
true is due to an ujustified entrenchment in a belief system is doing them
an injustice. Finding out what is going on in this world, and getting through
all of the half truths and lies in the world requires a great deal
of skepticism.

Loren

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!timbuk.cray.com!walter.cray.com!radner
From: [e-mail] (Lauren Radner)
Subject: Re: Artsy MIBs and Alien MIBs
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 Jul 92 20:40:47 CDT
Lines: 12

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Steve:
>I believe that anything is possible.
>John Winston.

Dear John,
You seem to believe that EVERYTHING is possible.

-Lauren



Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!uknet!ox-prg!oxuniv!atmsse
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: A new newsgroup ALT.HOOKE.ALIENS
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 31 Jul 92 11:20:50 GMT
Organization: Oxford University VAXcluster
Lines: 5

I propose a new newsgroup ALT.HOOKE.ALIENS to investigate the effect
of fluid dynamics on alien spacecraft entering the earth's atmosphere.

Slime-on...
[e-mail]
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!decwrl!bu.edu!dartvax!Frederick.A.Ringwald
From: [e-mail] (Frederick A. Ringwald)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: John_-_Winston Poll
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Aug 92 02:28:17 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (The News Manager)
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
Lines: 10

In article <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] (Rod Beckwith) writes:

[...]
>
> yes [X] John,please refrain from posting what should be email responses to
> this newsgroup.

Agreed, but how can you complain about wasted bandwidth in a newsgroup
called alt.alien.visitors?
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!uunet!timbuk.cray.com!walter.cray.com!radner
From: [e-mail] (Lauren Radner)
Subject: How to put ..."someone" ...in a Kill file...
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 31 Jul 92 21:29:14 CDT
Lines: 43


Let's say you want to put someONE (not some *subject*) in
your kill file. Here's how:

Let's use a random net address, such as :

           [e-mail]

1) Get in to edit mode with your kill file.
   (on our system, a "<CONTROL>k" will get you into edit mode.
    If that doesn't work, or you are curious about more options,
    try typing "h" and see if a "help" feature doesn't show up).

2) You should be in the "vi" editor at this point. Add a line to
   your kill file that looks like this:

   /[e-mail]/j

   This means find (the first "/") and "junk" (the "j"), ie, mark as
   read, all articles authored by this person.

3) Add another line that looks like this:

   /[e-mail]/h:j

   This means find all headers (the "h") containing this character
   string and junk them.

Hope that helps,
-Lauren

ps - in case you don't know, at our site at least, to put a
*subject* in a kill file, just hit "<SHIFT>k" and all further
instances of that subject line will be ignored.

pss - Also, to search forward through all the articles for a
particular theme of interest, say..."How to Serve Man", you can
type a "/serv" and it will go to the next one. When you're done
reading it, just hit "/" to go forward through all the next articles
and look for that subject, or "?" go backwards through all the articles
looking for that subject. The character string search is not case-
sensitive ("/SERve" and "/seRvE" will find the same articles).

Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7760 alt.conspiracy:17241 alt.activism:30236 sci.skeptic:28195 misc.headlines:23015 alt.politics.bush:1102
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!ub!galileo.cc.rochester.edu!gauguin.cc.rochester.edu!hpky
From: [e-mail] (Hanan Polanski)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,alt.activism,sci.skeptic,misc.headlines,alt.politics.bush
Subject: Re: UFO "October Surprise" and USA TAKEOVER?!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Aug 92 04:18:42 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: University of Rochester - Rochester, New York
Lines: 42
Nntp-Posting-Host: gauguin.cc.rochester.edu

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gregg Brown) writes:

>>        are sent to any of the 13 concentration camps now fully activated
>>        in the United States.

Really? Name two.

>In an armed society such as the USA this will be quite impossible. If anyone
>thinks that US citizens won't dust of the old .22 or the 12 gauge, they are
>completely wrong. Screw with their freedom, "authorized" gaurdsment or not,
>and they will blow a large hole through your frontal lobe, not to mention
>your ass!

True.

>>        URGENT:  MAKE 30 COPIES AND MAIL TO MEDIA, POLITICIANS, CHURCHES,
>>        ORGANIZATIONS.  POST ON BULLETIN BOARDS, PASS OUT TO CITIZENS IN
>>        THE STREETS!  TIME IS RUNNING OUT!  ACT NOW!

I don't think so.
(Having this ONE copy is bad enough!!) I-)

>If this worries anybody, here is your peice of mind. First, join the NRA.

I DEFINITELY don't think so!

I know this isn't the place to discuss the merits or faults of the NRA,
(don't you think keeping semi-automatic weapons in the home is over-kill?I-)
but for someone who isn't taking this "threat" very seriously, you sound
like you're taking it awfully *seriously*.

(not meant to be a flame, just an alternate viewpoint I-)

>The list goes on but just remember this: resist. If you will, everybody will.

If the "threat" exists, I *will* resist!

But somehow, I don't think so.

                James Willer : email to [e-mail]
{The opinions above are probably NOT those of
 Hanan Polansky. I don't know. I never asked.}
Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7761 alt.conspiracy:17246 alt.activism:30241 sci.skeptic:28197 misc.headlines:23018 alt.politics.bush:1105
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,alt.activism,sci.skeptic,misc.headlines,alt.politics.bush
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!gatech!hubcap!trev
From: [e-mail] (Trevor Bauknight)
Subject: Re: UFO "October Surprise" and USA TAKEOVER?!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Jes Grew Carriers -- Metaphysical Bunko Squad
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1992 07:35:25 GMT
Lines: 17

[e-mail] (Hanan Polanski) writes:

>(don't you think keeping semi-automatic weapons in the home is over-kill?I-)

No...why?  I, for one, don't want a populace incapable of armed insurrection
against our government, however benign or tyranical it is.  Semiautomatics,
automatics, cannons, bazookas, grenades, whatever...

Why would you have a problem with law-abiding citizens owning semiautomatic
weapons?  What harm could it possibly do?

Trevor Bauknight         [e-mail]    ...gatech!hubcap!trev

                                                     +-----------+
                                                     | _> ###    |
                  go gamecocks                       |     |     |
                                                     +-----------+
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!usc!newshub.sdsu.edu!voyager4!melissa
From: [e-mail] (Melissa )
Subject: Re: The Truth About.........
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: voyager4.sdsu.edu
Organization: San Diego State University, College of Sciences
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1992 09:07:11 GMT
Lines: 20


(Send mail to [e-mail] not melissa)

John,
    Thanks for the info, I watched the video again last night and the
titles of the books were "The Seed", and "The Star People", apparently
written along with his wife. I mean the second one, at least.
    He said he met her at a convention about twenty-odd years ago.
BTW, have you considered the fact that you are just about the only
person who ever posts in this group?        The handful of times that
I have checked, yours are the predominent(sp?) writings.
    Am I to assume that you are the local "Guru" on the paranormal
and ufoligy?
    I don't mean this as a "flame", as they call it, but I am really
interested in the fact that you know, and keep up with so much that goes
on in the world of the paranormal and "strange occurences".

                Michael Whittington
                [e-mail]

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!newshub.sdsu.edu!voyager4!melissa
From: [e-mail] (Melissa )
Subject: Re: John_-_Winston Poll
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: voyager4.sdsu.edu
Organization: San Diego State University, College of Sciences
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1992 09:19:01 GMT
Lines: 17



(Send mail to [e-mail], not melissa)

    Hey! Is this not a discussion group?
Where opinions, wide and varied, can find an outlet?
    I do believe, though I've not posted or contributed much
on thi group, that everyone is entitled to their own opinions and
ideas. Why can't John write what he feels to be important to some-
one who is reading the group for the first time?
    Lay off! Let everyone speak! We may just figure this out
if we get enough input!
    Just an opinion.

                    Michael Whittington
                    [e-mail]

Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Moon Activities?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Aug 92 00:42:03 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 24


 > Someone posted earlier about lights on the moon and a bridge thing
 > happening
 > about 30 years ago.  Even though this is about 10 years before my time,
 > I
 > still read about it.  I also heard, about little 'domes' appearing upon
 > the
 > moon's face around Plato, around this time.  Does anyone have any
 > further
 > info, ie. was any reason found for these sightings?

I believe you are referring to what is known as Lunar Transient Anomalies
(LTA).  NASA compiled a paper about this listing the various observations
that go back a couple of hundred years about people observing strange light
activity on the moon.  However, it has been theorized that the light
phenomena seen there may be volcanic activity.  The report from NASA is
interesting.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Men In Black
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Aug 92 00:42:01 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 36


 > From what I have read of old Budd's technique, he is terribly
 > incompetant and seems to be totally unaware of this issue.  My
 > observation is that he is spreading his own beliefs by hypnotic
 > suggestion.  In other words, the explanation is simple--a charlatan
 > is promulgating his own twisted fantasies through abuse of hypnotism.
 >
 > This would be almost funny if he weren't doing such damage to his
 > victims.  Whatever problems these people may or may not have had
 > (and some of them definitely had problems before Budd got them),
 > they now have a firmly entrenched belief that they have been raped
 > by aliens.  In most cases, this belief is incorrect, but the
 > psychological effect is likely to be horrible.
 >
 > Budd and the other "abductionophiles" have a lot to answer for.

I agree that hypnosis is a shaky method of attempting to validate an
experience as real or not, but there is an even bigger problem.  That is that
a good number of alleged abductees are able to recall the experience without
the use of hypnosis at all.  The question of whether or not the experience is
real is the one that must be studied.  The evidence is compelling.  Something
very strange is going on and it is not necessarily fraud.  Explain how people
from different parts of the country, totally unrelated to one another, can
describe the same exact thing?  This happens in a good number of these cases.
The big question is not if the experience is about aliens abducting humans
for genetic experimentation, but rather, what does the experience represent.
Does it represent a physical experience or something else?  These questions
will not be answered properly until we decide on the best methods to use to
validate it.

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin
From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Abductions (was: Men In Black)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Aug 92 00:42:02 GMT
Sender: [e-mail] (newsout1.26)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - <ParaNet(sm) , Arvada CO
Lines: 16


 > No doubt these people do indeed *claim* such experiences. But just
 > because
 > somebody *claims* something happened doesn't mean that it did, and
 > sincerity is irrelevant to whether the claim is true or not; all it
 > means is that the person *believes* it's true. And anybody can
 > hallucinate.

As they can be seriously deluded as well...:-)

Mike

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!agate!rsoft!mindlink!a3744
From: [e-mail] (Steve Sawyer)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: More please
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Aug 92 09:46:37 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world
Lines: 7

I am an alien being not of this planet communicating to you on behalf of all
beings from all worlds in all dimensions. There is purpose to this
communication....please...teach me more about your beliefs and ideals. What is
it that you strive for? Can I be of help? .



Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!psgrain!onion!pail!ralex
From: [e-mail] (Randy Alexander)
Subject: Re: Moon activities?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: moon, wierd
Organization: Rick's Home-Grown Un*x
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1992 09:30:26 GMT
Lines: 28

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (kevin fisher U) writes:

>Someone posted earlier about lights on the moon and a bridge thing happening
>about 30 years ago.  Even though this is about 10 years before my time, I
>still read about it.  I also heard, about little 'domes' appearing upon the
>moon's face around Plato, around this time.  Does anyone have any further
>info, ie. was any reason found for these sightings?


When I was a kid (about 14 or so 20 years ago) I had a 4 inch reflector
telescope. Many a night I would watch the stars, planets and moon and
never did I see anything strange. One night I did see a small black dot
moving across in front of the moon at a fast rate. I was able to follow the
dot until it past the disk of the moon. It was clear and defined and
looked like something in orbit of the moon. At the time I remember we did
not have any spacecraft on a mission and remember thinking I doubt that
I would be able to see it anyway. I will probably never know what it
was I saw... But it was so unusual that I remembber it clearly today.

Randy

[e-mail]

--
+----------------------------------------+---------------------------------+
| INTERNET:  [e-mail]         | Only AMIGA Makes it Possible    |
|            [e-mail]       |---------------------------------|
|            [e-mail]    | The opinions expressed in the   |
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!comp.vuw.ac.nz!waikato.ac.nz!aukuni.ac.nz!kcbbs!kc
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Hatton: CIA or ET?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (Robert Sutton)
Date: 1 Aug 92 10:11:08 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Kappa Crucis Unix BBS, Auckland, New Zealand
Lines: 12

[e-mail] 29 Jul 92 21:09:38 GMT types--
>Does anyone have anything at all regarding Green?

Would that be Green of Little Green Men?
If not I probably dont.

****************************************
RE ETOI SPACESHIPS SHY
OR ARE THEY JUST WAITING
TO SEAL THE ROYALTY DEAL?
**************************************

Xref: news.uiowa.edu talk.religion.newage:11065 alt.alien.visitors:7770 sci.skeptic:28199
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Get Off John's Back Please!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat,  1 Aug 92 06:24:31 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 10

Everybody listen up. We have the final results of the second running of
the Astral Convoy Sweepstakes.  We have D. coming out fast, in fact
she started about two hours early and was called on a technical due to
a false start. D. does say that she had a nice journey and enjoyed her=
self.  We have a new lady in the group that we'll call D. or better still
we'll call her R2D2.  Last weed she would up goinng horseback riding with
me but this week she really got serious and wound up sort of tired
when it was over but had a mellow feeling about herself. She felt that
people started treating her with more respect and that she could
see the light in other people. This is what it's all about folks--
Xref: news.uiowa.edu talk.religion.newage:11066 alt.alien.visitors:7771 sci.skeptic:28201
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Get Off John's Back Please!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat,  1 Aug 92 06:34:16 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 11

--people working together. Let me give you an occult secret. When you
get two people thinking together on a idea you get so much power. With
three you get so much. When you get 12 plus one your get the maximum
amount that can be generated by any number. Give me 12 people like
R2D2 and we can change the world.
  Another person by the name of Kumar took a trip with us but came in
contact with person who claimed to be his father (probubly not me) and
this person taught him some great things. This is good too.  Some
people just say they are dreaming of going on this journey. That's fine
too. I'll be trying to figure out a place that we can all meet next
time and it will have something to do with a certain lady.  --John Winston.
Xref: news.uiowa.edu talk.bizarre:68393 alt.alien.visitors:7772
Newsgroups: talk.bizarre,alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!pipex!demon!orbital.demon.co.uk!fluke
From: [e-mail] (Mr Fluke)
Subject: Re: Ley Linesj
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Third Spectrul Profumgulance of Antiloppe
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 21:12:21 GMT
Lines: 14

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>> --the Goddess and other planets and other constellations that she speaks
>> to, so when you are looking at these two barbells which are symbolical
>> of these particular configurations and you have two parallel lines that
>> are very close together and usually on either side of these circles,
>> these little parallel lines indicate the {specific} transformation doorways
>> for the earth and her conciousness. End of Part 3.
>> John Winston.
>
>Anyone know what all this rubbish is about? Answers on a postcard please.

Ummm... the dangers of letting people post to the net from public access
sites?
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!psinntp!dg-rtp!webo!dg-webo!tom
From: [e-mail] (Tom Sullivan)
Subject: Re: John_-_Winston Poll
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet Administration)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of Mon, 27 Jul 1992 17:10:26 GMT
Date: 31 Jul 92 16:31:56
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: NSDD, Data General Corp.
Lines: 38

>>>>> On Mon, 27 Jul 1992 17:10:26 GMT, [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith) said:
Rod> Nntp-Posting-Host: slugo.corp.sgi.com

Rod> Hello any & everybody,

Rod> Mabye John will get the MESSAGE this way?!?! All those in favor of dear old
Rod> John_-_Winston sending e-mail instead of posting his responses to the world
Rod> at large , please post a RE: to this message to let the post happy
Rod> bandwidth burner
Rod> know we are all growing weary of his blatent disregard for information
Rod> dissemination in an organized & efficient manner.The next step of course
Rod> would be to contact the NETWORK POLICE to give him a keyboard enema.

Rod> The choices are:

Rod> yes [X] John,please refrain from posting what should be email responses to
Rod> this newsgroup.

Rod> no [ ] John, continue with your irratating ways. We love to read all of
Rod> your responses to questions & flames that we have never seen.
Rod>
Rod> the old moronic no opinion [ ] What a stupid idea in the first place,who
Rod> cares about someone with no opinion.

Rod> Rod

Give John a break.  I enjoy his postings, precisely because they are
more far-out.  The UFO-thing is definately unsolved, and I want to
hear ALL possibilities.  Most of the sceptical reponses to John's
posts are also personally insulting to John.  I consider these MUCH
more offensive than John's info or email-on-the-net.  To think that
our science is the end-all to knowledge is incredibly naive (I
personally think that our science is only beginning to understand the
Universe, and this makes science exciting).  So, if there are
alternative theories/explainations for all this, I consider them
welcome.  I'm NOT for censorship, which is what this posting implies.

Tom
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!psinntp!dg-rtp!webo!dg-webo!tom
From: [e-mail] (Tom Sullivan)
Subject: Re: Orgone Energy
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet Administration)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 30 Jul 92 01:16:12 GMT
Date: 31 Jul 92 17:28:09
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: NSDD, Data General Corp.
Lines: 19

>>>>> On 30 Jul 92 01:16:12 GMT, [e-mail] said:
Mark> Nntp-Posting-Host: gilgamesh

Mark> My Digital Webster dictionary defines "orgone energy" as:

Mark> or gone \'o (e)r-,go n\ n
Mark> [prob. fr. orgasm + -one (as in hormone)]
Mark> (1942)
Mark> :a vital energy held to pervade nature and to be made available for use by
Mark>  the human body by sitting in a specially designed box

Mark> Okay, I give.  What's the story here?
Mark> (...and where can I get one of them BOXES!!!)

This refers to an invention of Wilhelm Reich (I probably botched the
spelling of his name).  He claimed that his Orgone Accumulators could
accumulate this "energy" and be used for healing and such.  The FDA
came down on him (very hard) and he ended up in prison with all of his
materials confiscated and burned.
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Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!gatech!psuvax1!uxa.ecn.bgu.edu!cfkfb
From: [e-mail] (Karl Bridges)
Subject: Re: UFO "October Surprise" and USA TAKEOVER?!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Educational Computing Network
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1992 15:52:41 GMT
Lines: 1

  Aliens don't bother me.  If they bleed they can die.
Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7776 alt.conspiracy:17251 alt.activism:30252 sci.skeptic:28204 misc.headlines:23023 alt.politics.bush:1111
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Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!torn!maccs!mcshub!physun!bunker
From: [e-mail] (Alex Bunker)
Subject: Re: UFO "October Surprise" and USA TAKEOVER?!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: physun.physics.mcmaster.ca
Organization: Dept. of Physics & Astronomy, McMaster University
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1992 16:27:19 GMT
Lines: 30

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Trevor Bauknight) writes:
>[e-mail] (Hanan Polanski) writes:
>
>>(don't you think keeping semi-automatic weapons in the home is over-kill?I-)
>
>No...why?  I, for one, don't want a populace incapable of armed insurrection
>against our government, however benign or tyranical it is.  Semiautomatics,
>automatics, cannons, bazookas, grenades, whatever...
>
>Why would you have a problem with law-abiding citizens owning semiautomatic
>weapons?  What harm could it possibly do?
>
>Trevor Bauknight         [e-mail]    ...gatech!hubcap!trev
>
>                                                     +-----------+
>                                                     | _> ###    |
>                  go gamecocks                       |     |     |
>                                                     +-----------+


This is where I have to cut in look at the statistics in the real
world. The USA has a murder rate 10X higher than any of the
other democracies. IS IT really worth this "right to bear
arms" crap? how are Germans,french,Canadians,UKers more
opressed than Americans? They have low crime rates and
stringent firearm laws. In what way are they any worse off
because of this? I can think of a lot of ways they are
BETTER off...
ALEX
..
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From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: More please
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Aug 92 17:23:32 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 39


    [e-mail] (Steve Sawyer) writes:
    I am an alien being not of this planet communicating to you on
    behalf of all beings from all worlds in all dimensions. There
    is purpose to this communication....please...teach me more
    about your beliefs and ideals. What is it that you strive for?
    Can I be of help?  .

.... I suggest you start by reading a few books.  Start with assorted
histories of humanity, in as many different languages as you can read
(to get as many viewpoints as possible.)  Then religious books (the
"central texts" from each major religion, a few from not-so-major),
then philosophy (pick 10 at random.)  Then learn to play soccer and
baseball, chess and poker.  Learn Tai-chi.  Watch Comedy Central for a
few days, then The Learning Channel.  Then listen to the music of
various western classical composers, then eastern, then african, then
jazz, then randomly-selected currently-popular music of as many
countries as you can find.  Then listen to the recordings of Mort
Sahl, Bill Cosby, and Victor Borge.  Then watch a day or so of
selected Warner Brothers cartoons, then a day or so of Monte Python.
Then watch 'Casablanca', 'Citizen Kane', 'Lawrence of Arabia', 'Big
Red One', 'Fort Apache', 'The Thing', 'Invasion of the Body
Snatchers', 'A Fine Madness', the last week of the Tonight Show with
Johnny Carson, 'Circle of Iron', a few Gilbert and Sullivan operettas
(I recommend "Princess Ida"), 'The Ruling Class', 'Emporer Jones' (the
original), 'Coconuts', 'Barefoot in the Park', 'Love and Death', and
'Chariots of Fire'.  (Then find somebody who knows more about
non-English-speaking movies, and ask them for some more.)

   After that, come back and talk to us again.  (Expecting any one
person -- or even a relatively small group) to teach you about all of
humanity's beliefs and ideals is asking a bit much.)  Rather than a
general question, you may be able to ask questions we can answer :-)

Charles

PS - I don't really want to get into shouting match on the list about
the movies/books/etc. I picked out; though a calm discussion of "gold
record Mk. II" might be amusing.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (John Martin)
Subject: Re: Abduction claims
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: n
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Institute of Neuroscience, University of Oregon
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 92 18:16:18 GMT
Lines: 12

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Loren Frank) writes:

>No it doesn't. Suppose that the scientific community is confronted with
>claims of a new phenomenon that is simply not consistent with current theories.


You mean like the Theory of Relativity?  Quantum Physics? Hypnotism? etc...


--
John Martin                                        [e-mail]
Institute of Neuroscience,   University of Oregon,    Eugene, OR,    97402
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Joe Citro III)
Subject: Re: Moon activities?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (UNO Network News Server)
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1992 19:00:51 GMT
Lines: 32

[e-mail]  writes:
> In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (kevin fisher U) writes:
>
> >Someone posted earlier about lights on the moon and a bridge thing happening
> >about 30 years ago.  Even though this is about 10 years before my time, I
> >still read about it.  I also heard, about little 'domes' appearing upon the
> >moon's face around Plato, around this time.  Does anyone have any further
> >info, ie. was any reason found for these sightings?
>
>
> When I was a kid (about 14 or so 20 years ago) I had a 4 inch reflector
> telescope. Many a night I would watch the stars, planets and moon and
> never did I see anything strange. One night I did see a small black dot
> moving across in front of the moon at a fast rate. I was able to follow the
> dot until it past the disk of the moon. It was clear and defined and
> looked like something in orbit of the moon. At the time I remember we did
> not have any spacecraft on a mission and remember thinking I doubt that
> I would be able to see it anyway. I will probably never know what it
> was I saw... But it was so unusual that I remembber it clearly today.
>
> Randy
>
> [e-mail]
>
> --
> +----------------------------------------+---------------------------------+
> | INTERNET:  [e-mail]         | Only AMIGA Makes it Possible    |
> |            [e-mail]       |---------------------------------|
> |            [e-mail]    | The opinions expressed in the   |


Maybe it was a bug walking across the lens ;)  !
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From: [e-mail] (Joe Citro III)
Subject: Re: UFO "October Surprise" and USA TAKEOVER?!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (UNO Network News Server)
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1992 19:14:08 GMT
Lines: 8

Gregg,

        Personally I prefer the M-203 grenade launcher!  Also, Bush should be
        pleased to know that he wins the november election.  Maybe the post
        "October Surprise"  should be renamed "November Surprise" ;).

                                        Joseph A. Citro III

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From: [e-mail] (Mitch)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,alt.activism,sci.skeptic,misc.headlines,alt.po
Subject: Re: UFO "October Surprise" and USA TAKEOVER?!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 92 12:34:21 PDT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Albedo Communications
Lines: 27

[e-mail] (Alex Bunker) writes:

> This is where I have to cut in look at the statistics in the real
> world. The USA has a murder rate 10X higher than any of the
> other democracies. IS IT really worth this "right to bear
> arms" crap? how are Germans,french,Canadians,UKers more
> opressed than Americans? They have low crime rates and
> stringent firearm laws. In what way are they any worse off
> because of this? I can think of a lot of ways they are
> BETTER off...

How many deaths are cuase by *legal* firearms?  How many would have been
caused by other means?

Yes, I think the relative availability of weapons in this country means
more people gets shot each year.  That's not a complete argument, though;
those same conservative Germans love to drive 100+ on the Autobahn, and
die in freeway accidents at even even more appalling rate than Americans
do.  Is this fascination with high speeds worth the toll?

Gun ownership makes some people feel more secure, prevents some crimes,
and may have some value in deterring tyranny.  It also makes some people
feel less secure, allows and aggravates some crimes and accidents, and
permits acts of rebellion against the lawful government.

Freeway driving, of course, causes far more death and destruction, and
doesn't even have a putative claim to constitutional protection.
Xref: news.uiowa.edu talk.bizarre:68404 alt.alien.visitors:7782
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!europa.asd.contel.com!emory!athena.cs.uga.edu!milliken
From: [e-mail] (Brewmeister)
Newsgroups: talk.bizarre,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ley Linesj
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Aug 92 20:27:37 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens
Lines: 24

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Mr Fluke) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
>>> --the Goddess and other planets and other constellations that she speaks
>>> to, so when you are looking at these two barbells which are symbolical
>>> of these particular configurations and you have two parallel lines that
>>> are very close together and usually on either side of these circles,
>>> these little parallel lines indicate the {specific} transformation doorways
>>> for the earth and her conciousness. End of Part 3.
>>> John Winston.
>>
>>Anyone know what all this rubbish is about? Answers on a postcard please.
>
>Ummm... the dangers of letting people post to the net from public access
>sites?

Nope.  The dangers of posting to the net after ingesting certain types of
mushrooms.

--
Copy this .sig and just say noe to big-brother's monitoring of public bandwidth
*Bush Quayle conspriacy JFK cocaine LSD heroin marijuana AK-47 Iran Iraq Libya*
*Sandinista Contras Panama Noriega FBI CIA NSA Secret Service fixed-elections *
*Neil Bush S&L coverup potatoe wiretaps search & seizure bill of rights dead  *
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From: [e-mail] (Loren Frank)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Abduction claims
Keywords: n
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 1 Aug 92 20:58:35 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News Administration)
Organization: University of Minnesota
Lines: 30
Nntp-Posting-Host: i1.msi.umn.edu

[e-mail] (John Martin) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Loren Frank) writes:

>>No it doesn't. Suppose that the scientific community is confronted with
>>claims of a new phenomenon that is simply not consistent with current theories.


>You mean like the Theory of Relativity?  Quantum Physics? Hypnotism? etc...


Yes. Exactly. I realize that those theories were not, at the time they were
proposed, consistent with the "current" theories of the scientific community.
The point is, though, that those theories were not supported solely by the
claims of a group of individuals but instead explained problems with the
older theories (the spectrum of black body radiation, the precession in the
orbit of Mercury, etc.) that Newtonian phsyics could not. But scientists of the
time did not immediately jump on the bandwagon of Relativity or Quantum
mechanics. For the most part they waited until there was "hard" evidence that
the theories corresponded to the real phenomena before accepting those theories.
I believe that good science involves a commitment to the present paradigm
until something that explains more and does a better job comes along. In the
case of UFO abducties, I am extremely unconvinced that explaining their claims
that they were abducted by believing that they were in fact abducted is a
better alternative than to look for psychological causes for their claims.
"Do not multiply particulars unnecessarily" (or how ever William of Ockham said
it...)


Loren
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!torn!watserv2.uwaterloo.ca!watserv1!mach4!kfisher3
From: [e-mail] (kevin fisher U)
Subject: Re: Moon Activities?
References: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Wilfrid Laurier University
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 92 21:18:04 GMT
Lines: 36

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Michael Corbin) writes:
>
> > Someone posted earlier about lights on the moon and a bridge thing
> > happening
> > about 30 years ago.  Even though this is about 10 years before my time,
> > I
> > still read about it.  I also heard, about little 'domes' appearing upon
> > the
> > moon's face around Plato, around this time.  Does anyone have any
> > further
> > info, ie. was any reason found for these sightings?
>
>I believe you are referring to what is known as Lunar Transient Anomalies
>(LTA).  NASA compiled a paper about this listing the various observations
>that go back a couple of hundred years about people observing strange light
>activity on the moon.  However, it has been theorized that the light
>phenomena seen there may be volcanic activity.  The report from NASA is
>interesting.
>
>Mike
>
>--
>Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
>UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
>INTERNET: [e-mail]

The only problem with volcanic activity is that the lights were apparently
appearing in geometric forms (triangles, squares).  The source I read has an
IMMENSE distrust of NASA (because of it's gov't affiliations :)

Just a thought...
--
Kevin Fisher  ><>    UUCP:[e-mail]             Tiger-Tiger!
Physics & Computing '92 at WLU  - - "I can't handle it!"
        We're gonna have a ball tonight,
            Down at the Globe.."  - - BAD II
Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7785 alt.conspiracy:17256 alt.activism:30270 sci.skeptic:28220 misc.headlines:23028 alt.politics.bush:1120 talk.politics.guns:37288
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Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!caen!mtu.edu!mtu.edu!cescript
From: [e-mail] (Charles Scripter)
Subject: Re: UFO "October Surprise" and USA TAKEOVER?!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: talk.politics.guns
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: phyfac7.phy.mtu.edu
Organization: Michigan Technological University
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1992 02:57:17 GMT
Lines: 49

In article <[e-mail]>,
[e-mail] (Alex Bunker) writes:

> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail]
> (Trevor Bauknight) writes:
> >[e-mail] (Hanan Polanski) writes:
> >
> >>(don't you think keeping semi-automatic weapons in the home is over-kill?I-)
> >
> >No...why?  I, for one, don't want a populace incapable of armed insurrection
> >against our government, however benign or tyranical it is.  Semiautomatics,
> >automatics, cannons, bazookas, grenades, whatever...
> >
> >Why would you have a problem with law-abiding citizens owning semiautomatic
> >weapons?  What harm could it possibly do?

Incidentally, semi-automatic .22 rifles are very popular these days;
People just don't like those old bolt action jobs.

> >
> > [...]
>
> This is where I have to cut in look at the statistics in the real
> world. The USA has a murder rate 10X higher than any of the
> other democracies.

Gee, seems like the best way to cure that, is to ban murder...  Clearly
the strict gun laws in Washington DC explain their much lower murder rate.
(highest in the, nation, isn't it?)

> IS IT really worth this "right to bear
> arms" crap? how are Germans,french,Canadians,UKers more
> opressed than Americans? They have low crime rates and
> stringent firearm laws. In what way are they any worse off
> because of this? I can think of a lot of ways they are
> BETTER off...

Well, Alex, I'm going to invite you to drop in on talk.politics.guns
(please note the followup line to t.p.g).  I think it would be worth
visiting for a while.  You might learn something new.  And it is the
correct group for discussing this topic.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Charles Scripter                   *      [e-mail]
Dept of Physics                    *
Michigan Technological University  *
Houghton, MI 49931                 *
-------------------------------------------------------------------
With your one remaining eye, please do NOT look back into the laser
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Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!torn!maccs!mcshub!physun!bunker
From: [e-mail] (Alex Bunker)
Subject: Re: UFO "October Surprise" and USA TAKEOVER?!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: physun.physics.mcmaster.ca
Organization: Dept. of Physics & Astronomy, McMaster University
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1992 03:05:50 GMT
Lines: 42

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Mitch) writes:
>[e-mail] (Alex Bunker) writes:
>
>> This is where I have to cut in look at the statistics in the real
>> world. The USA has a murder rate 10X higher than any of the
>> other democracies. IS IT really worth this "right to bear
>> arms" crap? how are Germans,french,Canadians,UKers more
>> opressed than Americans? They have low crime rates and
>> stringent firearm laws. In what way are they any worse off
>> because of this? I can think of a lot of ways they are
>> BETTER off...
>
>How many deaths are cuase by *legal* firearms?  How many would have been
>caused by other means?
>
>Yes, I think the relative availability of weapons in this country means
>more people gets shot each year.  That's not a complete argument, though;
>those same conservative Germans love to drive 100+ on the Autobahn, and
>die in freeway accidents at even even more appalling rate than Americans
>do.  Is this fascination with high speeds worth the toll?

I say no so? I think both guns and highway speeds should be regulated.
but what does this have to do with the original argument?
>Gun ownership makes some people feel more secure, prevents some crimes,
>and may have some value in deterring tyranny.  It also makes some people
>feel less secure, allows and aggravates some crimes and accidents, and
>permits acts of rebellion against the lawful government.
>
>Freeway driving, of course, causes far more death and destruction, and
>doesn't even have a putative claim to constitutional protection.

This is a complete red herring German freeway laws have *&@$^% all
to do with gun laws. Tell me what real benefits americans gain from
this "permission of acts of rebellion against the lawful government"?
Do not side track the argument. murder with weapon rate 10X higher
is it worth the price yes or no? If you say yes then frankly an
malicious idiot and you are bluntly someone I wish
I did not have to share my reality with. What positive things have Americans
been able to do, real concrete things not hypothetical rights, that
Canadians,Germans,French,UK'ers etc can not?
ALEX

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From: [e-mail] (Gary D. Lee-Nova)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Don's Posting
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Aug 92 11:36:20 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world
Lines: 32

I enjoyed Don's posting left here a few days ago.  I am always amazed at the
amount of discussion his posts often create.

This whole 'guns' discussion was precipitated by some info forwarded from
Washington State (C.A.C. if memory serves) to Don Allen somehow, and then Don
posts a copy onto this newsgroup.

I think the 'guns' discourse and debate has gone on a bit too long.  Don's post
was much more entertaining for me than some of this over heated topic of late
and the topic of the group is UFOs and related paraphanalia.  I saw some UFOs,
once.  They were up to some pretty amazing tricks.

None of this disc/saucer/cigar shaped stuff.  These were dots of light, way out
there, maybe 25,000 feet or more.  Looked about as bright as first magnitude
stars.   What these lights were up to out there was unforgettable.  There were
four or five of them.  They zig-zagged 90 degree turns in little staircase
patterns in the sky.  One would wink into view, do the zig-zag trick, & end up
somewhere at the end of the pattern and then wink out.  Then another, ( or two)
would perform the same trick, in different directions, but always about the
same distance.

I watched this for about 30 minutes but I became so confounded that I got tired
of watching, wondering whether or not human beings had aircraft that could do
amazing tricks like this.  If they did/do, I was pissed off about it being a
secret.

This was in 1972, in the Similkameen River Valley, in South East British
Columbia.  I'd seen lots of satellites go shooting across the night skies and I
still do when I'm out in the wilderness.  But I haven't seen those zig-zagging
lights since that first sighting.


Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!agate!remarque.berkeley.edu!utidjian
From: [e-mail] (David M.V. Utidjian)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Outlaw guns? NO!  Register guns! YES! (was:Re: UFO "October Surprise"
Date: 4 Aug 1992 13:12:34 GMT
Organization: Processed People for a Processed America
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Lee Campbell) writes:
>
[MUCH stuff by Gerry Roston and Lee Campbell deleted...]
>
>Well argued! However, you have completely missed the *true* debate.
>The true debate is over handgun registration, manditory waiting
>periods for handgun purchase, and elimination of "cop-killer" bullets.
>Should we do any of these things? The NRA says "NO!"  I say "YES!" to
>all of them. If you, Gerry, want to enter into the real debate, then
>perhaps you can argue why there should be no registration of handguns,
>no waiting period to purchase them, and why we should continue to sell
>copkiller bullets.

Mr. Campbell could you please define what you are saying yes to?

1 What is "handgun registration" specifically?  What would it
accomplish?  Where specifically do we need this registration?
Is there anywhere in the country where we already have this
registration of handguns?  Has it been shown to be beneficial
to these areas? (ie. reduced handgun crime rate).

2 What is a "manditory waiting period"?  How long should it be?
What determines how long it should be?  What is the purpose of
an m.w.p.?  Does the m.w.p., in areas that it is required,
accomplish this purpose?  What laws already exist regarding
manditory waiting periods, in the US, in MA?

3 What is a "cop-killer" bullet?  What makes them have this
property called "cop-killer"?  Who makes them? Who sells
them?  When were they first called "cop-killer"? By whom?
Has any cop been killed by a "cop-killer" bullet?

4 Do you know what the laws are regarding gun ownership in the
state you are living in?  If not, why not?

I will thank you in advance for answering the above questions
and defining your terms.  Only after it is clear that we both
know what we are talking about can a "*true* debate" begin.

Incidentally, you better check your history on machine-guns.


>                - Lee Campbell  <[e-mail]>

David Utidjian

Xref: news.uiowa.edu talk.religion.newage:11078 alt.alien.visitors:7883 sci.skeptic:28348
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Get Off John's Back Please!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue,  4 Aug 92 06:25:35 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 10

Dear Fellow Earthians and Dwellers of the Planet Shan. At the present
time my son is looking into the system called Prodigy and in this system
there is a person with several questions that I may be able to answer.
The questions are on a bullitin board, and these are the questions;
What do you think the aliens want from us? When will they reveal themselves
and does anyone have any info. Please write back soon.  So those are the
questions.  I'll probubly be starting off with the first question in  that
I have just heard about a man in France who had come in contact with
a space person who claims he is part of a civilization of people who
originally made the human vehicle that we now use.
Xref: news.uiowa.edu talk.bizarre:68651 alt.alien.visitors:7884
Newsgroups: talk.bizarre,alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!unislc!erc
From: [e-mail] (Ed Carp)
Subject: Re: ALIEN GREETZ
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
References: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1992 20:55:10 GMT
Lines: 18

[e-mail] writes:
: In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
: > Saalome gam naan ben uurda gan neeber asaal hesporoona
: >
: > HI ya!
: >
: >     If you know what this means please contact me !
:
:  Salami gum not-a-number been under gun needing astral hernia.
:
: How's that?

Well, rot13, it ain't! :)
--
Ed Carp, N7EKG     [e-mail]                801/269-8125
"This is the final task I will ever give you, and it  goes  on  forever.   Act
happy, feel happy, be happy, without a reason in the world. Then you can love,
and do what you will."           -- Dan Millman, "Way Of The Peaceful Warrior"
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!unislc!erc
From: [e-mail] (Ed Carp)
Subject: Re: John_-_Winston Poll
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
References: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1992 21:04:03 GMT
Lines: 13

[e-mail] (Steve Browne) writes:

: Hear Hear! Some of us actually have to pay for our usenet access, and then
: have to pay to download it - 75% of which is absolutely of no interest to me,
: coz John's mailing publicly.

So?  Talk to your feed site.  I'm sure it would be no trouble at all to put
"!alt.alien.visitors" in /usr/lib/news/sys for your site...
--
Ed Carp, N7EKG     [e-mail]                801/269-8125
"This is the final task I will ever give you, and it  goes  on  forever.   Act
happy, feel happy, be happy, without a reason in the world. Then you can love,
and do what you will."           -- Dan Millman, "Way Of The Peaceful Warrior"
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!unislc!erc
From: [e-mail] (Ed Carp)
Subject: Re: ALIENS JOIN FLIGHT PLAN
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
References: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1992 21:13:14 GMT
Lines: 48

rhoge1@esk (Robin Hoge) writes:

:     Area 51 is notorious as a base for above-top-secret millitary
: developments often fuelled by enormous, unaccounted-for CIA slush funds.

Nowadays, the CIA would be lucky to be able to hide the purchase of a
Mr. Coffee coffee maker in their budget, let alone the millions it would take
to fund this sort of project.

But the NSA, well ...

:     The few who get close to the craft report a distinctive loud,
: pulsating noise.  But as Area 51 is very heavily guarded, both by elite
: federal troops and local sheriffs, near encounters are rare.

I doubt that the feds would let the local cops within 10 miles of the place.
The feds look on local cops as bozos.

:     Its power source was an anti-matter reactor using a super-heavy
: element not found naturally on Earth and difficult to synthesise.  These
: facts convinced Lazar the ship's technology was not of this planet.

I find this difficult to believe, as even a trained physicist would have
trouble identifying an anti-matter reactor without taking the damned thing
apart first.  And identifying a "super-heavy" element without a mass
spectrometer or similar equipment would be little better than a guess.

:     The saucers run gravity amplifiers and use gravity wazes as we
: use microwaves.

Again, ho do we know that?

: The other day, my I heard that my mother dated some guy many years ago
: in her younger years, who took her out to California desert, and showed
: her big, wide metal saucers on the ground.  He always said he wanted to
: go with them, and one day he disappeared, and so did the saucers.  It
: also could have been a government cover up, you know, kill him because
: he saw the saucers.  Then they hide the saucers in their hangars as well.

Well, I *could* tell you the *real* story behind all of this ... but then I'd
have to kill you,.

:)
--
Ed Carp, N7EKG     [e-mail]                801/269-8125
"This is the final task I will ever give you, and it  goes  on  forever.   Act
happy, feel happy, be happy, without a reason in the world. Then you can love,
and do what you will."           -- Dan Millman, "Way Of The Peaceful Warrior"
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!ira.uka.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!stepsun.uni-kl.de!sun.rhrk.uni-kl.de!efes.physik.uni-kl.de!kring
From: [e-mail] (Thomas Kettenring)
Subject: Re: Men In Black
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: FB Physik, Universitaet Kaiserslautern, Germany
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1992 13:43:40 GMT
Lines: 23

Sorry, this is not related to a.a.v.

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Robert R. Mitchell (SEAS admin)) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>[e-mail] (Michael Corbin) writes:
>>BTW, what does Prometheus mean?
>
>Prometheus is the Titan who stole fire from heaven
>and gave it to mankind, for which he is chained
>and tortured by Zeus.  His punishment is either
>rolling a boulder uphill everyday (it rolls back down
>each night), or he is chained to a rock and birds
>of prey eat his entrails.  (I think the latter, but
>I'm not certain.)

It's the latter.  The former was Sisyphos' punishment for playing tricks on
Thanatos (Death).

Prometheus was chained to the Caucasus.  Much later, Herakles freed him in
exchange for some info about apples.

--
--------------thomas kettenring, 2 dan, kaiserslautern, germany---------------
Definition:  Idiot-proof  -  you are idiot-proof when you flame NOBODY.
Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7888 alt.conspiracy:17367 alt.activism:30509 sci.skeptic:28352 misc.headlines:23146 alt.politics.bush:1272
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,alt.activism,sci.skeptic,misc.headlines,alt.politics.bush
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From: [e-mail] (Daniel A Ashlock)
Subject: Re: Guns and Skeptics
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Daniel A Ashlock)
Organization: Iowa State University
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1992 14:11:10 GMT
Lines: 55

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Gerry Roston)
writes:
> Too many people have been brainwashed into believing that guns are bad
> and that guns cause crime.  This simply isn't true.

   Well, guns may not be bad but people are stupid.  My understanding is that
the preponderance of gun mortality (in the US) results from people blowing
themselves or others up through careless handling of guns.  Saying guns cause
crime is stupid.  Saying guns can protect you from crime, or oppression, is
equally stupid.  Let's take your Tian-an-men square example and contrast it
with whats going on in Serbia and Bosnia.  Lot-o-guns there: in the hands of
recently officialized citizen millitia.  So your idea that guns have any
relation to freedom from opression, mayhem, etc. is just as bogus as the
assumption they cause it.

   Likewise I would be surprised if gun ownership had much relation to crime
victimization.  The primary way to figure your odds of being the victim of
crime is to asses the local economy.  If there are poor folks around, your odds
go up.  The guns are pretty dammned irrelevant.  There are counter examples
like the town in Florida that made gun ownership an all-but-civic-duty, and
prevented the south Florida crime spree from entering their town.  Big whoop.
They still have a lot of problems related to the effects of the crime spree
on the reigional economy and politics.

   Personally I support the right of damnfools to kill themselves and their
children with guns they don't need, just as I support the right of responsible
gun owners to skeet shoot, hunt, or just take deep pleasure in seeing a well
crafted machine through the plexiglass window on their locked gun cabinet.
I hate big brother as much as Gerry.

   The idea that anything other than informed, well educated citizens acting
on behalf of the common good can protect freedom is silly.  Guns don't protect
freedom.  People do.  When you need a gun to protect yourself you've already
lost a great deal of freedom.

   I live in Ames Iowa.  I don't own and have never needed a gun of any sort.
I may one day take up target shooting (after I finish learning archery).  I
managed to protect _my_ freedom by living in an area where the people are
foresquare for law-and-order and freedom.  There is also a notable lack of poor
people without hope.  There are good schools, open to all.  This cultural
commitment to economic opprotunity and political freedom is a far more reliable
gaurdian for my freedom than a gun.

> [The above comments also apply to governments as they too wish to take
> that which is ours and keep it for themselves.]

   Govenment of, by, and for the people will do it.  Guns only might and
the body count would be remarkable.  For that matter, shooting at an opressive
government is stupid.  I can make time bombs in my garage; these are much better
weapons against opression than guns.

> Gerry Roston ([e-mail])    | What is it the Bible teaches us? - rapine,

Dan
[e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!torn!cunews!nbkanata!nexus!robc
From: [e-mail] (Rob Craig)
Subject: Re: Orgone Energy
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: fauve
Organization: Newbridge Networks Corporation
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1992 14:25:08 GMT
Lines: 91

In article [e-mail], [e-mail] (Raymond Shaw) writes:
>> [e-mail] writes:
>>
>> My Digital Webster dictionary defines "orgone energy" as:
>>
>> or gone \'o (e)r-,go n\ n
>> [prob. fr. orgasm + -one (as in hormone)]
>> (1942)
>> :a vital energy held to pervade nature and to be made available for use by
>>  the human body by sitting in a specially designed box
>>
>> Okay, I give.  What's the story here?
>
>
>Hello Mark,
>
>        If you're really interested in this subject, I suggest you read some of
>Wilhelm Reich's books.  Reich was responsible for the "theory" of orgone energy
>and the development of the "orgone accumulator" -- the "box" to which you
>refer.
>        An interesting note to this subject is the fact that Reich was a
>contemporary of Freud, but branched out into his own line of investigation
>which led to his discovery of orgone energy.

Well, he branched out not just from Freud, but from the scientific community
in general.  When he found his ideas were not being accepted as he felt they
should be, he decided to continue on his own.  He carried out research, but did
not publish in peer-reviewed journals.  His later works were extensions of his
earlier work, but without the benefit of others' criticism.

>He developed a box which had the
>ability to "collect and trap" orgone energy.  He found that when people were
>exposed to the energy, they experienced increased vitality.  He subsquently
>began using it in his practice (he was a psychiatrist).  He eventually ended up
>in the USA where he started to distribute various sizes of orgone accumulators
>until the FDA decided they contravened American law and Reich was then
>imprisoned where he died shortly thereafter.

One of the uses of the orgone accumulators was the treatment of cancer.  I
beleive it was on this point that the FDA acted; I'm a little shaky on the
details (and don't have a reference handy).  They didn't throw him in jail due
to the orgone accumlators directly; he refused to appear in court (as I recall),
since he didn't feel he had to justify his actions to the FDA.

>All the orgone accumlators in the
>USA were "rounded up" and destroyed, even though many people had experienced
>extraordinary cures to various diseases, including cancer.  In his will, Reich
>left instructions that his writings be held back from the general public for 50
>years.  Reich died in 1957.

I hadn't heard the part about the request in his will before, do you have a
reference for that?  (I don't mean this as a challenge...but I would like to
find out the source of the information).

>        Among his books in print, there is one which is a compilation of his
>various works (I found this one in my local library, sorry I can't remember the
>title) in which details are given on how to build your own orgone accumlator.

There are several books by others about Wilhelm Reich as well, but as I said
earlier, I don't have any of my references.  I have tried (briefly) to recreate
a small orgone accumulator (apparently the orgone energy becomes visible after
it has accumulated for a while) with no success...I hope to try to re-create his
experiment more exactly at some point.

It should also be mentioned that near the end his 'research' was flakey at
best, he was using a modified orgone accumulator (more of an orgone gun) to
affect the weather, and later to affect the UFOs that were becoming more
frequent over his place of research.  There were also problems with negative
orgone (DOR as I recall - Deadly ORgone?).

>        Hope this helps.
>
>                        Raymond Shaw.


Rob.


Disclaimer: I said it, so if there's any flaming to be done, flame me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 Rob Craig                               Internet: [e-mail]
 BBS: [phone]                     FidoNet:  1:163/123
----------------------------------------------------------------------
   "Q: do cells have 'free will'?

    If not, how can free will be a characteristic of a being composed
    of cells, such as ourselves?"

                                       - Stephen Dekorte
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!uknet!warwick!str-ccsun!strath-cs!ex-dcs!paul2
From: [e-mail] (Paul Day)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Gun Control crap
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Aug 92 12:14:12 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept. - University of Exeter. UK
Lines: 25

PLEASE take the discussion on Gun Control & Crime somewhere else.

This is alt.ALIEN.visitors, not misc.gun.control.&.crime, and I for
one, don't want to wade through zillions of tedious messages which
have no relevance to us here `over the pond'.

At the very least can you make sure that the distribution is
restricted to the USA - the issues you are discussing just are not
relevant to us here in England, where it is VERY hard to get a gun
licence, and where guns have to be locked up etc etc.

Sorry about this - I am not trying to be net.police, its just that I
read alt.alien.visitors for all the wierd & wacky stuff that gets
posted there ! I ENJOYED reading `October Suprise', even though I had
to log into nyx to do it because Don Allen made that posting US only.

Pinch of salt ....I think you need a SACK of salt!

P.

--
=       Paul Day, Centre for Connection Science, Computer Science Dept,       =
=               University of Exeter, Exeter, Devon, England.                 =
=       BITNET: [e-mail] | JANET: [e-mail]        =
========= I didn't do it, nobody saw me do it, you can't prove anything =======
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From: [e-mail] (Charles Mcgrew)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ALIENS JOIN FLIGHT PLAN
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Aug 92 14:49:58 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 27


    ([e-mail]) Ed Carp, N7EKG
    Nowadays, the CIA would be lucky to be able to hide the
    purchase of a Mr. Coffee coffee maker in their budget, let
    alone the millions it would take to fund this sort of project.

... this is a commonly-held idea, but I don't think it really holds
water.  That projects get leaked in politically useful (to the leaker)
cases does not mean that all projects get leaked.  There is still a
lot of unpublicly-accounted-for money in the CIA budget (a lot of it
for things like satellites, TR-1's, probably this "Arora" thing,
etc.).

    But the NSA, well ...

Quite so.  There are also secret funds for the USAF, Navy, etc. etc.

    I find this difficult to believe, as even a trained physicist
    would have trouble identifying an anti-matter reactor without
    taking the damned thing apart first.  And identifying a
    "super-heavy" element without a mass spectrometer or similar
    equipment would be little better than a guess.

... well, Bob Lazar claims to have seen the X-Ray spectograph of the
"element 115" in his interview with Billy Goodman.

Charles
Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7892 alt.conspiracy:17370 alt.activism:30514 sci.skeptic:28360 misc.headlines:23148 alt.politics.bush:1283
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Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!utcsri!torn!maccs!mcshub!physun!bunker
From: [e-mail] (Alex Bunker)
Subject: Re: UFO "October Surprise" and USA TAKEOVER?!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: physun.physics.mcmaster.ca
Organization: Dept. of Physics & Astronomy, McMaster University
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1992 15:05:15 GMT
Lines: 110

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Duane P Mantick) writes:
>[e-mail] (Alex Bunker) writes:
>
>>This is where I have to cut in look at the statistics in the real
>>world. The USA has a murder rate 10X higher than any of the
>>other democracies. IS IT really worth this "right to bear
>>arms" crap? how are Germans,french,Canadians,UKers more
>>opressed than Americans? They have low crime rates and
>>stringent firearm laws. In what way are they any worse off
>>because of this? I can think of a lot of ways they are
>>BETTER off...
>>ALEX
>
>    I don't intend to start or overly fuel a political argument
>on guns in this newsgroup, but I will answer your question.
>
>    If you take away guns from law-abiding citizens, then only
>cops and crooks will have guns.  Gun control laws will have virtually
>NO effect on true criminals.  The net effect will be to render the
>majority of the citizenry incapable of defending their homes against
>gun-toting crooks.  The cops don't STOP criminals, in general.  They
>only arrest them AFTER the crime has already been committed. If you
>happen to be the one who gets shot by said crook, that isn't
>much comfort, is it?
>
>    The concept of the US population being unable to defend themselves
>against the cops is also, IMHO, a recipe for repression.  As corrupt
>as out politicians are already, the concept of them knowing that we
>would be unable to do anything about *whatever* they'd decide to do
>bothers me greatly.

This sounds great in theory but in practice it does not wrok that way.
The US does not have that free and open political system compared to
some countries with gun regulations. IS there political repression
today in germany,Canada,UK,France etc... Just a greater Ideological
choice among candidates.

>    I'm NOT an NRA member.  I don't stand with the NRA in all
>their arguments because they refuse to budge an inch.  Their refusal
>to give in on a waiting peiod for gun purchases is, again IMHO,
>rather stupid and childish.
>
>    But I *do* believe that if guns are outlawed, only outlaws will
>have guns.  (be they crooks or politicians)
>
>    If guns could not be used to commit crimes, what makes
>ANYONE think that knives, clubs, cars etc. would not suffice?
>
>    In emotional cases like the guy in California who shot a bunch
>of school kids - if he didn't have a gun, could he not have stabbed
>a bunch of them?  Run them down with a car? Beat several to death?

No but it is much easier with a gun. All other weapons require a bit more
contemplation etc..

>    I don't hear anyone trying to ban kitchen knives, cars and
>baseball bats because they are too dangerous.
>
>    As for the european countries being crime free, let me point
>something out to you - they STILL have prisons.  The prisons STILL
>have prisoners.  And take a look at where acts of terrorism are
>actually done - in the US?  Not really.  In Europe?  Yep.  How many
>terrorist attacks occur, let's say in US airports?  How many have
>you read about in European airports?
>
>    The lion always preys on the sheep, NOT on the other lions.
>The US is an armed camp.  WE, the US population, being armed,
>just may be our best continued defense against the terrorist
>swine.  Only a suicide squad would bother......
>
>    Would YOU want to attack 100 million guns?

NOW THIS is highly silly!!! Terrorism was a fleeting phenomenon
of mostly the late 70's and early 80's that resulted in
a few splashy headlines for tabloids. Fewer people have died
as a result of terrorism in the last 30 years in europe than
probably are murdered in a MONTH in the average american city.
America has not had terrorism because they are not bordering
communist countries to hide arm and finance them (The German
RAF) and America is in general further away more isolated, difficult
to get to and ,hey why bother going there when you can pick off
bunches of them much closer in their airline stops in Europe.
Also there is terrorism in the US but your media subdues its coverage.
(mostly Puertorican leftists)

>    Does Canada have a low crime rate?  Could be - what is the total
>population of Canada - isn't it about the same as California?
>What is the crime rate in the crowded urban areas of Canada?  The
>fewer people you have, the less opportunity for crime you have.

Lower per capita ad its rise is directly correlated to guns being
smuggled in from the US
>    The US murder rate *is* high.  No question about it.  Where
>do those murders mostly occur?  Big cities, perhaps?  How many of
>them are related to the illegal drug trade or to organized crime
>of some fashion?  And what percentage of the total US population
>is actually involved in these crimes?  5 percent? 2 percent?
>1 percent?  Less than one percent?  Then why punish a whole population
>for the crimes committed by a small fraction?
>
>    I continue to stand for the American population being allowed
>many freedoms, INCLUDING the Right to Keep and Bear Arms.

But what great thing has this freedom given them? HOW ARE THEY ANY
SAFER THAN FRENCH GERMANS OR CANADIANS BECAUSE OF THIS???
YOU STILL HAVE NOT ANSWERED THIS QUESTION?!?!?!?!?!
>Duane

ALEX

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From: [e-mail] (Mark)
Subject: Re: A racist argument against handgun control legislation.
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: MCIL
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1992 12:40:14 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Alex Bunker) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

>>First of all, The question was why shouldn't LAW-ABIDING people own weapons.
>>Law-Abiding people don't murder people. (by definition)
>>
>>Second of all, how do you know that US crime is due to Law-abiding people
>>owning weapons ? Perhaps the low crime rates in European countries are
>>due to the homogeneity (sp?) of their populace ?  Why does Switzerland have
>>such a low crime rate and such a high rate of ownership of weapons ?  Why
>>do certain countries have huge murder rates and almost no private ownership
>>of weapons ? (South Africa, Peru, etc..)
>>
>>Mark
>
>OK mr racist I can read between your hate filled lines. "Homogeneity
>of their populace" read = not too many murderous {insert foul ethnic
>slur referring to black and hispanic people}. Canada is FAR more
>ethnically diverse and has a murder rate less than the average
>large american city.

Goddamn liberal.  I neither said nor meant anything racist, it is simply
a fact that many of the European countries are much older and have much
more homogeneous populations than the US, nor did I say anything at all
about ethnicity.

As a matter of fact, my point is, Why should law-abiding people not be
allowed to own weapons ?

>    second point. having lived for a while in Switzerland let
>me tell you about gun ownership there. The ONLY gun Swiss people
>are allowed to own is their very large bulky Military rifle
>that remains DISASSEMBLED in their closed ready for the day
>the French, Germans, Austrians, or Italians invade (Yes they
>find this funny too!). Hardly a concealable weapon.

I spent three summers in Switzerland, and I have observed a completely
different attitude on the part of the Swiss than you have.  Most Swiss
take their weapons very seriously.  A large percentage of the people (at
least the men) I met, own an automatic assault rifle AND a handgun. Every
weekend, the ranges are *full*, and I mean *full*, of people practicing.
(Most of my time was spent in the Bernese Oberland region, I don't know exactly
what the attitudes are in the other cantons, but I didn't notice any
differences on this particular issue)

>    Citing SA and Peru is an unfair comparison. No America does not
>have the killing rate of Nagorno-Carabach,Transdnester, or
>Bosnia-Herzegovina right now either BIG DEAL! I am comparing the
>US to countries where all other things are more or less equal
>except gun control laws.

The problem with that comparison, is that there aren't many countries
which things are more of less equal.

Mark

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From: [e-mail] (Crunchy Frog)
Subject: Re: Get Off John's Back Please!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Fellow Earthians and Dwellers of the Planet Shan. At the present
>time my son is looking into the system called Prodigy and in this system
>there is a person with several questions that I may be able to answer.

Cool, this is just like Jeopardy!

>The questions are on a bullitin board, and these are the questions;

I'm ready Alex.  I'll take New Age Loonies for 200....

>What do you think the aliens want from us?

Oooh.  Toughie.  I think they want to help humanity enter a new
dimension of love and harmony and get in resonance with the entire
universe.

Am I close?

>I have just heard about a man in France who had come in contact with
>a space person who claims he is part of a civilization of people who
>originally made the human vehicle that we now use.

They invented RollerBlades?????????  Now *this* is intense.

C "Yow!  Aliens from New York are in my underwear" Frog
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From: [e-mail] (Gerry Roston)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,alt.activism,sci.skeptic,misc.headlines,alt.politics.bush
Subject: Re: guns and criminals
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Aug 92 16:44:25 GMT
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In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of 4 Aug 92 01:53:33 GMT

Sorry to keep this thread alive, but..

Permits for buying ammunition:
There used to be laws that required keeping track of who bought
ammunition.  It was costly and it NEVER ONCE helped law enforcement
agencies solve a crime.  This is a shining example of government at
its best... a useless law was removed from the books.  Also, what do
you do about folks like me who reload our own ammo?

Defense vs offense:
Stupid line of reasoning.  Do you really want to wear a flak jacket?
They are quite heavy and uncomfortable.  Furthermore, they only
provide some small amount of protection.  Also, a flak jacket is NOT a
bullet-proof vest, they are two different things.  A flak jacket is a
bullet proof vest with steel plates inserted.

Licensing guns:
See my earlier post on out threat to freedom should this be
implemented.


The only viable solution I see to the gun licensing/training issue is
this: every citizen (and permenent residents) of this country should
be trained in the safe handling of firearms.  Before y'all scream,
this would take only a few hours and could be done in high school at a
very small cost to the community.  By doing this, we eliminate the
need for licensing and the threat of the government's seizing guns
from owners.  I also suspect that this would reduce crime [see below]
and reduce accidents.

Do to an increased emphasis on gun safety, the number of accidental
gun deaths has been steadily decreasing over the last 50 years. In
1988 there were 1400 gun related accidental deaths.  (Compare this to
48,700 car accidents, 11,300 falling deaths, 5,300 drownings, 4,800
fire related deaths, 4,400 poisonings and  3,200 chokings.)  In 1987,
guns deaths were 5.74 per million, down from 24.03 per million in
1932.

About the theory that guns cause crime: If you look at the number of
homicides committed in the US over the period from 1915 until 1988,
the years with the lowest homicide rates were in the late 1940's, when
returnign veterans brought a unprecedented number of guns into the
country.  You will also find a dramatic uprise in homicides
immediately following the enactment of the 1968 Gun Control Act.

Some people seem to go ballistic when the subject of children and guns
comes up.  In 1985, 27,607 children (up to age 18) died in the US.
Of these, 11,927 died in all accidents (429 from guns) and an
additional 208 were murdered.  Compare this to 6,639 motor vehicle
deaths, 1,613 drownings, 1,249 fire, 1,445 other.  Again, the evidence
shows that guns are not a major contributer to the number of child
deaths.

You will also find that the US is not as violent (in certain respects)
as our "peace-loving" European neighbors.  For instance, the rape rate
per 100,000 in The Unites States at 26.30 and is below such countries
as Australia (90.82), West Germany (77.49), New Zealand (65.73),
Netherlands (56.00), Scotland (44.69), Denmark (41.06), Sweden (40.52)
and Austria (30.42).

Finally, (I misremember the dates f this anecdote, but the evidence
come from _Armed and Female_ by Paxtom Quigley): In Tampa Fl in the
1960 (?), the police decided to have a gun safety program for women.
They expected several hundred attendees.  Several thousand showed up.
They rescheduled the event and the training was well publicized.  The
crime rate in the ensuing months dropped significantly.


A final plea: This bboard is supposed to be for people who are
skeptical, i.e., question urban legends (guns=crime) unless evidence
is brought forth.  The vast preponderance of the evidence suggests
that guns != crime and that in certain circumstances, guns (or the
belief that guns are present) actually serves to diminish crime.  I
would urge all future posters to PLEASE find statistical evidence
before they post.

My sources for the above statistics are:
BOC75 - U.S. Bureau of the Census, Historical Statistics of the United States,
Colonial Times to 1970, Bicentennial Edition, Part 2, Washington, DC, 1975.

BOC83 - U.S. Bureau of the Census, Statistical Abstract of the United States:
1982-83. (103th edition.) Washington, DC, 1982 [sic]..

BOC89 - U.S. Bureau of the Census, Statistical Abstract of the United States:
1989 (109th edition.)  Washington, DC, 1989.

UCR85 - U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Uniform
Crime Reports 1985.

UCR87 - U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Uniform
Crime Reports 1987.
--
Gerry Roston ([e-mail])    | [the most perfect form of popular
Field Robotics Center,          | government is that] where the least injury
Carnegie Mellon University      | done to meanest individual, is considered
Pittsburgh, PA, 15213           | as an insult on the whole constitution.
[phone]                  | Solon
                                |
The opinions expressed are mine |
and do not reflect the official |
position of CMU, FRC, RedZone,  |
or any other organization.      |
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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Abduction claims
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Aug 92 17:20:26 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Peter Nelson) writes:
> [e-mail] writes:
>>
>>This blade cuts precisely both ways. Just because somebody *disclaims* that
>>something happened doesn't mean that it did not, and sincerity is (still)
>>irrelevant to whether the disclaimer is true or not: all it means is that
>>the person *disbelieves*.  It may or may not be true that anybody can
>>hallucinate; it is indeed true that anybody can be subject to a state of
>>denial, especially if the material threatens their entrenched belief system.
>
>   Wrongo.
>
>   The burden of proof is on the person making the *positive* assertion.
>   I am under no obligation to attempt to prove a negative.  You can't default
>   to assuming all non-disproven claims are true, since it's easy to posit
>   mutually contradictory non-disproven claims.
>
> ---peter
>>
The point is being missed here -- the discussion is not about *proof* because
obviously am ephemeral event such as was described cannot be subjected to
controlled methods. What is at issue is the apparent belief by *debunkers*
that if *they* announce a thing is untrue, then that is the definitive
statement.  I turned Skeptic's statements around to show how silly it sounds
to make such non-substantiated pronouncements.

If someone claims to be logical, let alone scientific, let alone some manner
of spokesperson (not for a group but for a *stance*) then we have the right
to demand mental clarity and, even more important, intellectual integrity.
When a person jumps immediately in with a pronouncement -- without thoughtful
consideration of pertinent evidence both pro and con -- then what we are
seeing is not so much an exercise of judgement as an exhibition of ego.

That's not a hanging offense, by the way -- lots of it going around. But
given the problematic state of getting primary data in this particular
field, and the overwhelming contamination of information, it's not helpful
for getting to the truth.

Lou
>
>
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From: [e-mail] (Gregg Brown)
Subject: Re: Gun Control, Crime Control, Crime Rate, NRA, Armed Citizens.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1992 14:26:15 GMT
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Stop it! STOP IT! Stop It! StOp It!
Stop it! STOP IT! Stop It! StOp It!
Stop it! STOP IT! Stop It! StOp It!
Stop it! STOP IT! Stop It! StOp It!
Stop it! STOP IT! Stop It! StOp It!
Stop it! STOP IT! Stop It! StOp It!
Stop it! STOP IT! Stop It! StOp It!

I am truly sorry I ever mentioned ANYTHING about guns, about criminals and
/or crime rate!!!!!! Everybody back to your corners and come out slinging

           ALIENS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please.

Gregg.

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From: [e-mail] (Gregg Brown)
Subject: Re: A racist argument against handgun control legislation.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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A word about John Winston. My only post about John Winston. My last
post about John Winston.

I don't mind John's "STUFF" in the area. What I do mind is all the
talk about "JW this and JW that and JW shouldn't and JW should".
Please! Lets refrain from talking about John, unless, of course,
he is an alien. This, I admit, is possible. However, its not
that big of a deal if he puts stuff in here. The big deal is when
20 other people start posting "Bad John" messages. This creates
10 times the off topic messages than John ever writes.

Now, back to the subject.

Gregg.


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From: [e-mail] (Gregg Brown)
Subject: Re: guns and criminals
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
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Leonard, please read replies in talk.politics.guns. I will post all
replies over there. I suggest everyone do this that is involved
with freedom/guns/crime discussion.

Gregg.

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From: [e-mail] (Gregg Brown)
Subject: Re: guns and criminals
In-Reply-To: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
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In article <[e-mail]> you write:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gerry Roston) writes:
>> When you look at statistics related to crime, etc, you will find the
>> following:
>> 1-The US does have a slightly higher murder rate than other countries,
>> although it is typically ranked between 5 and 10 on the list of
>> countries with the highest murder rates.
>> 2-If you remove from the statistics the large US urban regions of NYC,
>> Washington DC, Detroit, you will find that the crime rate in the US is
>> LOWER than many other countries in the world.
>
>Right, remove the top crime locations and, surprise, surprise, your
>crime rate is suddenly better.  To be fair, you should also remove the
>corresponding areas from the countries you're comparing with.  I
>expect that you'll find then that your position on the list hasn't
>changed.

You missed the point. The point is the TOP crime areas have GUNS outlawed
for ANYBODY to possess. This is an almost laughable statistic. Its true
but it just makes me He-Haw when I think of it. All you anti-gunners
just take a look. This statistic make you look like a bunch or real
idiots. Even *GUN* crimes are high in these areas. Get a clue
people. GUNS+PEOPLE<>CRIME rather PEOPLE-GUNS=(MORE CRIME) and
PEOPLE-GUNS=(MORE OPPRESSIVE GOVERNMENT)


>
>> 3-The above mentioned cities
>>  -have the most restricitve gun control laws in the country
>>  -have some of the worst "ghetto" neighborhoods
>>
>> CONCLUSION: Guns are not the cause of crime.  There is absolutely NO
>> evidence to even suggest a connection between gun ownership and crime.
>> The problems in our country are economic problems.
>
>Of course not, but *when* a *criminal* carries a gun, he's also more
>likely to use it in a stress situation.  And I think the criminal is
>then also very likely to use the gun in a way that law forbids.
>  So you'll probably think that this means that there's no reason to
>outlaw guns for non-criminal persons.  To see why it is a good idea to
>make it harder for non-criminals to get guns, you'll have to think of
>what the criminal was before he went criminal: he was a non-criminal
>of course, and if he planned his crime, he probably had no problem
>getting a gun since all records showed he hasn't commited any crimes.
>The problem is that the records doen't show what plans he really has
>for the gun.


GOTCHA!! Study the statistics a little more and you will find
that almost ALL crimes where the criminal posses a firearm:

A) The firearm was obtained illegally, usually black market. This is
   in over 90% of the crimes we are discussing.

B) The criminal had committed crimes and been previously convicted.
   This is in over 50% of the crimes we are discussing.


>
>> Consider the maxim: If guns are outlawed, ony outlaws will have guns.
>
>And the police, and the military.

Yeah. I certainly trust the police to be there in the time that it takes
for a rapist to put a knife (or gun) to my wife's throat, or beat my kids
to death as they sleep, or rob my home after they knife me to death or steal
my car as I watch helplessly.

>
>> However, all of this misses the main issue:
>> A well-regulated militia, being necessary for a free state, the right
>> of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
>>
>> What does this mean and why was it written?
>> The confusing clause is the first due to changes in Enlish usage since
>> the latter part of the 18th century.  Well regulated meant well
>> equipped, not regulated as by the government.  According to US civil
>> code, ALL males between 18 and 45 are part of the militia.
>
>The freedom of the state is hardly provided by individuals wearing
>guns anymore, but by the military.

By the military? Don't recall any military intervention when 7 white
boys decided to rob the corner drugstore and gang rape the cashier.
That appears to me to be a slight breach of the cashier's freedom. Not
only that, the whole idea of a well regulated militia is to ward off
an armed rape of the people by the *the* military. If you think this is
false, how come anytime there is a revolution in some oppressed
third world country, they start buying guns? What are we supposed
to use if we don't have any guns? Strong language? Legislation?
I am sure you could stand in front of an advancing army and
quote the entire constitution and they would shoot you just the same.
Fact is, the first thing a repressive (opressive?) government does
is get all the guns out of the people's hands. Makes the herd a lot
easier to corral. I don't like corrals.

>
>> This amendment was written because
>> -the founding fathers realized that the RKBA is a natural right, as is
>> the freedom of speech.  The 1st and 2nd amendments do't grant rights,
>> but prevent rights from being revoked.
>> -to protect the people against the tyranny of their own government.
>> Having lived under British domination, the FF were very wary of
>> governmental abuse, and this amendment was written to ensure the
>> people had the means by which to revolt.
>
>Let me see you revolt against the US army with handguns. I can barely
>wait.

Oh, yeah? Ask the Russians about Afgahnistan. Just a few villagers with
AK47s and other assorted firearms and weapons. Its not the weapons
or the numbers but its the balance. In an armed society, the government
WILL think twice before engaging the military. Kinda like the difference
between herding sheep and bears. Dem bars, dey gots claws! Sure, you
can do it, it just takes a lot more effort. I prefer to be a bear.


>
>> Many people who question the ownership of guns look at Europe and say,
>> "Hey, their crime rate is lower!"  But consider the history of Europe
>> over the last 200 years...  Need I say more?
>
>Maybe *you* can live in history, but I prefer to live today, in a
>country without lots of unnecessary weapons.

Thats really funny. We won't need weapons until we need them. Yeah, like,
lets not think ahead. I am sure thats fine for you but I prefer to secure
my future a little more than that. If we use this line of thought I would never
hold a job for more than a day. Just work enough to buy supper and quit.


>
>
>> --
>> Gerry Roston ([e-mail])    | What is it the Bible teaches us? - rapine,
>
>Greetings from happy Finland,
>
>-- Leonard

Leonard, please use a little more content in your messages. You are too easy
of a target. I spent all my time typing instead of thinking. You also need
to read all of the statistics before you start into something like this.


Oh, and flamers: You better turn it on high! I've got plenty more where
that came from! Personally, I think the issue is pretty cut and dried.


Gregg.








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From: [e-mail] (Gregg Brown)
Subject: Re: Men In Black
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Gregg Brown) writes in part:
>|> No, they can really be classified as kidnapping. In most cases the people are
>|> returned to their dwellings unharmed. There is no prolonged "ride" in a
>|> UFO. Only a breif visit and (sometimes) a physical exam.
>This is an idiotical legal analysis.  Your theory is a misstatement
>of the law of kidnapping.  ASK A LAWYER.  In any case, there are lots
>of other possible criminal violations that could also be considered:
>
>-illegal entry.
>-practising medicine without a license.
>-performing medical/and or experimental procedures without proper
>informed consent.
>-battery ("unpermitted touching").
>-bodily and/or mental damages.
>-in some cases, maybe rape or sexual assault.
>-in the case of minors, child abuse, etc.
>
>In times of war, these are called atrocities.  They not only
>violate local laws, they violate the Nuremburg and Helsinki
>accords on human rights.  ASK A LAWYER.
>
>Anyone with evidence of crimes such as these, ESPECIALLY if
>children are involved, has a responsibility and a duty to report
>them to the police.  Discussing them in books and on talk shows
>is NOT sufficient response to such horrible crimes.  ASK A LAWYER.
>
>The real reason why these cases are not brought to the attention
>of the police is that, as you point out, the "evidence" is too
>shaky to hold much chance of even confirming the supposed crime,
>let alone capturing the alleged culprits, or protecting the
>claimed victim.
>
>And, of course, you cold get unlucky and get a skeptical prosecutor
>and face charges of filing a false police report.
>
>--
>  Robert E. McGrath
>  Urbana Illinois
>  [e-mail]

Ouch! I stand quite corrected. You could have been a little more gentle.


Gregg.


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From: [e-mail] (Bob Ingria)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Ride on John's Back, Please! (Was: Re: Get Off John's Back Please!)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Aug 92 18:30:01 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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In-reply-to: [e-mail]'s message of 4 Aug 92 13:25:35 GMT

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

   I have just heard about a man in France who had come in contact with
   a space person who claims he is part of a civilization of people who
   originally made the human vehicle that we now use.

You mean the aliens invented Trabi's and Yugo's?  Hah, then no doubt
about it, their intentions are hostile!

-30-
Bob
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!csd4.csd.uwm.edu!angus
From: [e-mail] (Andrew Michael Vebber)
Subject: Re: Outlaw guns from Aliens?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords:  Aliens, Guns
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1992 18:33:05 GMT
Lines: 11

Should Aliens from Outer Space have the right to bear arms?  Are covered under
the second amendment?  You tell me!


- JLW

--

|  [e-mail]    | University of Wisconsin Milwaukee      |
|----------------------------|----------------------------------------|
| "If the answer is Jerry Brown, then it is a awfully silly question. |
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!uknet!edcastle!fofp
From: [e-mail] (M Holmes)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Alien descriptions, why the greys??
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Aug 92 18:30:42 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Edinburgh University
Lines: 26

[e-mail] (Joseph Good) writes:


>One theory that has been going around for quite a while is our facination with
>'grey' type aliens is due to the movie "Close Encounters".  I haven't paid much
>attention to this at all, and I'm sure the flames will be thrown my way in just
>a few minutes, so.. flame on.

>With the publicity the movie got, it wouldn't be that far fetched to try and
>link the vast amount of 'grey' abduction and sightings to the movie.  I'm sure
>that it has been said the movie was made to look like 'greys', and in that
>case.. cool.

Well, some of us will be old enough to remember that the original
version of Close Encounters didn't show the aliens/inside of the
spacecraft. (Well, ok, you could see them through the light/mist, but
there were no details.) So the question is: were there reports of Greys
between the release of the first version and the extended edition?

>But, consider the popularity of the Alien series.  Why have there been no
>claimed sightings of any creatures similar to these things?

If you saw one, you didn't survive to report it?
>Joseph Good

FoFP
Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7905 alt.conspiracy:17391 alt.activism:30547 sci.skeptic:28387 misc.headlines:23171 alt.politics.bush:1313
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!sun-barr!ames!agate!dog.ee.lbl.gov!csa3.lbl.gov!sichase
From: [e-mail] (SCOTT I CHASE)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,alt.activism,sci.skeptic,misc.headlines,alt.politics.bush
Subject: Re: UFO "October Surprise" and USA TAKEOVER?!
Date: 4 Aug 92 19:41:12 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory - Berkeley, CA, USA
Lines: 24
Distribution: na
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.254.198
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Rich Payne) writes...
>
>And you may end up in court, and be found guilty of using excessive
>force, etc... While you may have an obligation, the laws do not clearly
>grant you and rights in this matter.

True enough.  But there are certain times when the law is irrelevant.
If me or my family were being attacked, I would surely shoot now and
deal with the other consequences later.  I would have to rely on a
jury which understood my situation.

I have been told by a close friend who is a lawyer, that if you shoot someone
in your home there is very little chance of you suffering legal consequences.
Of course, if you have shot someone in the back, it is always a good idea
to turn them over and shoot them again in the chest...

-Scott

--------------------
Scott I. Chase            "The question seems to be of such a character
[e-mail]        that if I should come to life after my death
                and some mathematician were to tell me that it
                had been definitely settled, I think I would
                immediately drop dead again."      - Vandiver
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (robert i kesten)
Subject: Re: Gun Control, Crime Control, Crime Rate, NRA, Armed Citizens.
References: <[e-mail]>
Nntp-Posting-Host: nx20.mik.uky.edu
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1992 18:46:58 GMT
Lines: 32

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gregg
Brown) writes:
> Stop it! STOP IT! Stop It! StOp It!
> Stop it! STOP IT! Stop It! StOp It!
> Stop it! STOP IT! Stop It! StOp It!
> Stop it! STOP IT! Stop It! StOp It!
> Stop it! STOP IT! Stop It! StOp It!
> Stop it! STOP IT! Stop It! StOp It!
> Stop it! STOP IT! Stop It! StOp It!
>
> I am truly sorry I ever mentioned ANYTHING about guns, about criminals
and
> /or crime rate!!!!!! Everybody back to your corners and come out
slinging
>
>            ALIENS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> Please.
>
> Gregg.


I TOTALLY AGREE, and I apologize for my part in perpetuating the
gun thread.  I will direct all future comments to proper groups.
HOWEVER, if people continue to make serious gun comments in
non-relevant newsgroups I will continue to crosspost their
comments to talk.politics.guns.  This goes for pro and anti gun
posts.

Robert K.

BACK TO ALIENS!!!
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Tom Randolph)
Subject: Re: UFO "October Surprise" and USA TAKEOVER?!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date:  4 AUG 92 12:39:45
Lines: 8


- Gun stuff deleted -

Enough already with the guns!
There's other newsgroups for this! Unless we're talking about shooting aliens,
take it to one of them, please!

-Tom R.   [e-mail]
Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7908 alt.conspiracy:17395 alt.activism:30554 sci.skeptic:28393 misc.headlines:23175
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,alt.activism,sci.skeptic,misc.headlines,alt.politics.bush.talk.politics.guns
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!utcsri!torn!maccs!mcshub!physun!bunker
From: [e-mail] (Alex Bunker)
Subject: Re: A racist argument against handgun control legislation.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: physun.physics.mcmaster.ca
Organization: Dept. of Physics & Astronomy, McMaster University
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1992 19:07:03 GMT
Lines: 72

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Alex Bunker) writes:
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>
>>>First of all, The question was why shouldn't LAW-ABIDING people own weapons.
>>>Law-Abiding people don't murder people. (by definition)
>>>
>>>Second of all, how do you know that US crime is due to Law-abiding people
>>>owning weapons ? Perhaps the low crime rates in European countries are
>>>due to the homogeneity (sp?) of their populace ?  Why does Switzerland have
>>>such a low crime rate and such a high rate of ownership of weapons ?  Why
>>>do certain countries have huge murder rates and almost no private ownership
>>>of weapons ? (South Africa, Peru, etc..)
>>>
>>>Mark
>>
>>OK mr racist I can read between your hate filled lines. "Homogeneity
>>of their populace" read = not too many murderous {insert foul ethnic
>>slur referring to black and hispanic people}. Canada is FAR more
>>ethnically diverse and has a murder rate less than the average
>>large american city.
>
>Goddamn liberal.

How dare you refer to me as a liberal. Liberals are indecisive wishy
washy middle of the roaders I am a SOCIAL DEMOCRAT! (half way
between liberal and socialist on the political spectrum)

> I neither said nor meant anything racist, it is simply
>a fact that many of the European countries are much older and have much
>more homogeneous populations than the US, nor did I say anything at all
>about ethnicity.
>
>As a matter of fact, my point is, Why should law-abiding people not be
>allowed to own weapons ?
>
>>    second point. having lived for a while in Switzerland let
>>me tell you about gun ownership there. The ONLY gun Swiss people
>>are allowed to own is their very large bulky Military rifle
>>that remains DISASSEMBLED in their closed ready for the day
>>the French, Germans, Austrians, or Italians invade (Yes they
>>find this funny too!). Hardly a concealable weapon.
>
>I spent three summers in Switzerland, and I have observed a completely
>different attitude on the part of the Swiss than you have.  Most Swiss
>take their weapons very seriously.  A large percentage of the people (at
>least the men) I met, own an automatic assault rifle AND a handgun. Every
>weekend, the ranges are *full*, and I mean *full*, of people practicing.
>(Most of my time was spent in the Bernese Oberland region, I don't know exactly
>what the attitudes are in the other cantons, but I didn't notice any
>differences on this particular issue)

I was in more Urban Zurich,though I was very young. The Swiss
people I know are mostly highly educated academics who find
all this military stuff to be daft nonsense. They refer to their
compulsory military service as "boy scouts for adults" and
laugh at all those who are dumb enough to believe that Austria
Italy France or Germany is planning an invasion.

>>    Citing SA and Peru is an unfair comparison. No America does not
>>have the killing rate of Nagorno-Carabach,Transdnester, or
>>Bosnia-Herzegovina right now either BIG DEAL! I am comparing the
>>US to countries where all other things are more or less equal
>>except gun control laws.
>
>The problem with that comparison, is that there aren't many countries
>which things are more of less equal.
>
>Mark
>
ALEX
.
Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7909 alt.conspiracy:17396 alt.activism:30555 sci.skeptic:28396 misc.headlines:23176 alt.politics.bush:1320
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!gatech!purdue!mentor.cc.purdue.edu!noose.ecn.purdue.edu!rainbow.ecn.purdue.edu!rjwade
From: [e-mail] (Robert J. Wade)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,alt.activism,sci.skeptic,misc.headlines,alt.politics.bush
Subject: Re: UFO "October Surprise" and USA TAKEOVER?!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Aug 92 19:15:59 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET news)
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Lines: 26

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Alex Bunker) writes:
>>
>This is where I have to cut in look at the statistics in the real
>world. The USA has a murder rate 10X higher than any of the
>other democracies. IS IT really worth this "right to bear
>arms" crap? how are Germans,french,Canadians,UKers more
>opressed than Americans? They have low crime rates and
>stringent firearm laws. In what way are they any worse off
>because of this? I can think of a lot of ways they are
>BETTER off...
>ALEX
>.
oh, is it really worth this 'free speech' thing when sometimes people say
bad stuff...gee alex...you scare me...maybe you are willing to give up
your constitutional rights but don't you fucking dare try and take *mine*
away!  are you such a simpleton that you don't realize that there is no
proof that this rate is related to citizens owning guns.  hey alex, guess
what...murder is illegal...but...surprise...people still get killed.  drugs
are illegal and ...surprise...people can still get drugs.  you can never
keep guns out of the hands of criminals and they don't obey the law anyway so
banning any type of gun is pointless as well.  i'm surprised you don't
want to ban ford ranger pickups since that loon in texas used his to drive
thru the window of the restraunt and then got out and started shooting all
those defenseless people(gee maybe if one of them had a gun with them he
would have not been able to kill so many...huh...imagine that...)
get educated past your 3rd grade logic ya scarry moron!
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!centerline!noc.near.net!chaos!random.ccs.northeastern.edu!rogue
From: [e-mail] (Rogue Agent)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: ALIENS JOIN FLIGHT PLAN
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Aug 92 19:49:10 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Comp. Sci. @ NU
Lines: 13

In article <[e-mail]>
rhoge1@esk (Robin Hoge) writes:

>    In the ship Lazar examined, a central column acted as a wave-guide
>and sat atop a basketball-sized hemisphere in the floor which was the
>antimatter reactor.

Is it just me, or does this ring a bell with anyone else?

'Spock!! Noooooooo!!!!!!'
'The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few...or the one.'

    RA
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!destroyer!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.unomaha.edu!cwis.unomaha.edu!jcitro3
From: [e-mail] (Joe Citro III)
Subject: Re: Is this still alt.alien.visitors?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (UNO Network News Server)
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1992 20:41:45 GMT
Lines: 6

Hey Rods right!  maybe we (those who post on alt.alien.visitors) should
post information about the 'Greys' on talk.politics.guns  .  I'm beginning
to feel as though this newsgroup has been invaded!

                                        Joseph A.Citro III

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!sdd.hp.com!decwrl!pa.dec.com!e2big.mko.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Outlaw guns from Aliens?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News Daemon)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1992 21:31:40 GMT
Lines: 12

-Message-Text-Follows-

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Andrew Michael Vebber) writes...
>Should Aliens from Outer Space have the right to bear arms?  Are covered under
>the second amendment?  You tell me!

Yes!

There's a lot of strange stuff in the universe and some of it would eat you.

Protect our inter-galatic right to bear arms... or arm bears...or something
like that.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!acd4!TEFS1!gvb
From: [e-mail] (Gregg Brown)
Subject: Re: We have met the enemy and they are us.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1992 19:28:10 GMT
Lines: 54

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (frost...) writes:
>Hello all,

[interesing backround deleted]

>would be the need. And all the sightings of UFO's, abductions and
>such are just ancient ancestral memories that have managed to sur-
>vive and surface from time to time in a people who have forgotten
>their original origins.
>                        Just thoughts,
>                           Jim


Thanks Jim. Thats an angle I had not approached. So far I have just
a few facts on all this "abduction thing".

#1: They have and probably are occuring. This points out the fact that I
    do not believe the people are "just dreaming". I beleive the events
    really did take place, at least in some cases. In others, it may just
    be a dream. The abductions are taking place. People are being (of have
    been) examined.

#2: In some cases, physical evidence shows up that the abductions happen
    in accord with UFO sightings. UFO means Unidentified Flying Object not
    Alien Spacecraft. This could be a decoy. The true places these aductions
    take place could be somewhere else. Yes, smell conspiracy here. Just
    a thought.

#3: There is a lot of money being made off of this. Books, magazine articles
    even careers have been spawned due to the abductions. Get out the salt
    shaker!

#4: I have four possibilies in my head about the identity of those that are
    abducting us. How you see each of my possibilities will depend on how
    Sci-fi interested, Gov. paranoid or technology oriented you are.
    They are listed below without any particular order.


    #1 possibility - People from other planets/star systems/galaxies.
        #2 possibility - People from this planet - they may already be here.
    #3 possibility - People from a different time (future or past)
    #4 possibility - People in our present - our government

    1, 2 and 3 could be considered "Aliens" but I chose people instead since I
    tend to do my best to discourage racial bias regardless of human or alien
    biological pattern differences. Possibility #4 could be written into a
    Tom Clancy novel.

    Thanks to the above gentleman, I now have a fifth possibility. Ancient
    ancestral memories, interesting. This I will ponder for a while.

Gregg.


Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7914 alt.conspiracy:17401 alt.activism:30569 sci.skeptic:28404 misc.headlines:23181 alt.politics.bush:1335
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,alt.activism,sci.skeptic,misc.headlines,alt.politics.bush
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!acd4!TEFS1!gvb
From: [e-mail] (Gregg Brown)
Subject: Re: Ego-masturbation (was Re: UFO "October Surprise" and USA TAKEOVER?!)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1992 19:32:16 GMT
Lines: 32

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Crunchy Frog) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Stephen Matson) writes:
>>[e-mail] (Richard A. Schumacher) writes:
>
>This is amazing.  This thread (gun control) has nothin to do with *any*
>of the groups it is being posted to.  Okay, I have seen some threads that
>only belong in *one* of their listed groups, but *none*?
>
>Might I suggest adding:
>
>    alt.religion.kibology
>    comp.lang.ada
>    talk.politics.gun.nuts
>    alt.personals
>    soc.culture.portugese
>    net.head.up.ass.losers

I got a kick out of that last one.


>
>You don't want to miss anyone on the net, do you?
>
>C Frog

Actually I started it.  Its my fault C. I am really sorry and refuse to post
any more gun/crime/politics stuff here. Don't rub it in. I feel bad enough
already.


Gregg.

Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7915 alt.conspiracy:17405 alt.activism:30571 sci.skeptic:28410 misc.headlines:23187 alt.politics.bush:1340
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!sun-barr!ames!pacbell.com!charon.amdahl.com!amdahl!starnet!motcsd!udc!mcdphx!ennews!anasaz!qip!billy
From: billy@anasaz (Bill Moore)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,alt.activism,sci.skeptic,misc.headlines,alt.politics.bush
Subject: Re: UFO "October Surprise" and USA TAKEOVER?!
Message-ID: <1992Aug3.033213.4155@anasaz>
Date: 3 Aug 92 03:32:13 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Anasazi, Inc.  Phoenix, Az
Lines: 26

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Duane P Mantick) writes:
->
->[gobbledeegook deleted]
->
->That was, without a doubt, the biggest bunch of pure manure I have read
->ANYwhere on ANY newsgroup.....
->
Actually, a second civil war in the United States isn't such a far fetched
idea.  It's the rage the world around ane we certainly have as many regional
differences as counties that are breaking up now.  There's a serious movement
in Alaska now calling for sessation and California would clearly be better
off without us.

Look at LA.  You had Koreans defending their stores at gun point and, a couple
of more nights, the skin heads would have come out.  Sooner if a black gang
had decided to press the idea of movement into white neighboorhoods.  So,
while I don't think it's a conspiracy, the ideas in this post weren't so
far off (except for the part about Bush/Quayle being in office next year.)

\>Duane


--
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
     Bill Moore     [e-mail]    [phone]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7916 alt.conspiracy:17406 alt.activism:30572 sci.skeptic:28411 misc.headlines:23188 alt.politics.bush:1342
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,alt.activism,sci.skeptic,misc.headlines,alt.politics.bush
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!gumby!wupost!decwrl!adobe!pngai
From: [e-mail] (Phil Ngai)
Subject: Re: guns and criminals
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET NEWS)
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1992 22:41:46 GMT
Lines: 10

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Loren I. Petrich) writes:
>    And one should learn ways of self-defense using one's own
>body, so one can deal with assailants not equipped with guns.

How macho of you. My wife rejects your suggestion. So does my mother.

--
My opinions are my own.
A right delayed is a right denied.

Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7917 talk.politics.guns:37459
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.politics.guns
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!ukma!news
From: [e-mail] (robert i kesten)
Subject: Re: Outlaw guns from Aliens?
References: <[e-mail]>
Nntp-Posting-Host: nx11.mik.uky.edu
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1992 00:39:42 GMT
Lines: 27

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Andrew
Michael Vebber) writes:
> Should Aliens from Outer Space have the right to bear arms?  Are covered
under
> the second amendment?  You tell me!

SINCE THIS DEALS WITH EXTRATERRESTRIAL ALIENS I don't think I'm
breaking my promise.

The answer:  if the aliens become a contributing part of
the national community (note:  this does not mean they have
to become citizens) and they are defined as "people" then
YES, I think they should have the right to keep and bear
arms.  (per U.S. Supreme Court decision U.S. v. Verdugo-
Urquidez, 1990).

Robert K.

<g>

I also think aliens should all have the right to bare
their arms, tentacles, claws, claspers, and all other
such appendages as would not of an offensive nature to
expose to public view.

As to arming bears, I don't know about that subversive stuff.

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!paladin.american.edu!darwin.sura.net!wupost!decwrl!csus.edu!netcomsv!netcom.com!payner
From: [e-mail] (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: Outlaw guns from Aliens?
Message-ID: <p!wmn![e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 92 00:26:10 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Keywords: Aliens, Guns
Lines: 19

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Andrew Michael Vebber) writes:
>Should Aliens from Outer Space have the right to bear arms?  Are covered under
>the second amendment?  You tell me!

Unless the aliens have a dress code, they are probably not required to
wear long sleeve shirts. The greys are rather small, possibly they
could be covered by the second amendment.

(it's more relevant than the gun thread at least :)(

>- JLW
>
>|  [e-mail]    | University of Wisconsin Milwaukee      |

Rich

[e-mail]


Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: A question for John_-_Winston
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue,  4 Aug 92 18:14:52 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

Dear U-all: I have been told that Multu posts about 20k of information
and is beloved of people on this net and in Europe. I's like to meet
him. It sounds like he has something to say and says it.
John Winston.
Xref: news.uiowa.edu talk.religion.newage:11084 alt.alien.visitors:7920 sci.skeptic:28418
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Get Off John's Back Please!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue,  4 Aug 92 18:22:52 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
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Dear Frog and Bob: You people are really great in your flames. You
should copywrite all that material.
John Winston.
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Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Get Off John's Back Please!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue,  4 Aug 92 18:55:24 PDT
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Here's the information about the man in France and the alien.---On Dec.
13, 1973 Claude Vorilhon came in contact with a person coming out of
a space craft. The extraterrestrial was 4.5 feet tall with long black
hair and a short beard of the same color. His eyes were slightly almond-
shaped and stretched out towards the temples. He wore a sort of green
suit which appeared to be made of only one piece. A strange halo surrounded
his face. More precisely, the air surrounding the head was brilliant
and seemed to vibrate or shimmer.  The extraterrestrial stopped and smiled
and so did Claude. C. then asked him, "Where do you come from?" The ET
answered in perfect French, From very far away." "You speak French!"
"I speak all languages of the world." "Do you come from another-----JW
Xref: news.uiowa.edu talk.religion.newage:11087 alt.alien.visitors:7922 sci.skeptic:28420
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Ride on John's Back, Please! (Was: Re: Get Off John's Back
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue,  4 Aug 92 19:09:10 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
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---"Do you come from another planet?" "Yes, I do," "Is this the first
time you have visited the Earth?" "Oh, no!" "Do you come here often?" "Very
often is the least I could say."
Claude came to talk with the alien for six  consecutive days and talked
for one hour each time. He was told about our origin, our probable future
as well as the essential information regarding the universe and our place
in it. He was told that a long time ago, the secret of life was discovered
by successfully creating 100% synthetic human beings through a perfect
understanding of deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA) or genetic engineering.
They found a planet suitable for the creation of life and they started
a colossal experiment. End of Part 1.  John Winston.
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!paladin.american.edu!darwin.sura.net!wupost!usc!hacgate!maxwell!frazier
From: frazier@maxwell (Greg Frazier)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Is Bigfoot a Visitor?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 4 Aug 92 21:22:01 GMT
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[e-mail] (Rod Beckwith) writes:
: Greg[you write]
: >Be serious - you tell us you saw bigfoot, and then rolled over
: >and went back to sleep, and we're supposed to buy it?  Yeah,
: >right.  I've nver heard of a hypnogogic vision, but I find it
: >a lot easier to believe than your cockamamie story.
:
:
: It really doesn't matter what you believe. People deal with fear in a
: plethora of ways. Because I chose not to pursue the creature  was the
: direct result of FEAR. You can call it what ever you want.....but until it
: happens to you, I guess you will never know how you would handle it ,now
: would you?

Hold it a sec - you didn't just not pursue the creature.  You
went to sleep!  Sure, I might wet my nighty - and then I'd
stay up the rest of the night, listening.  That is where one
pretty much has to believe that you never quite woke up.

: I'm 6'2" & 220 pounds,born & raised for the most part in East San
: Jose,scrapped plenty in my life,never been scared of anything or
: anyone....until that night.

Never scared of *anything* or *anyone*?  Tough cookie - further
evidence that you were hallucinating.  If your conscious had been
in control, you'd have handled it.

: YOU WEREN'T THERE.
:
: Join Mr. Sheaffer in the glass house & pray the Gods are kind to you.

I don't get this glass house business.  I'd be as thrilled as
anybody if we discovered aliens or bigfoot (whichever you think
this was).  I mean it - it would really be neat.  But, let's face
it Rod; this wasn't the big event.

--


Greg Frazier    [e-mail]    !{ucbvax,rutgers}!ucla-cs!frazier
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!munnari.oz.au!deakin.OZ.AU!fulcrum.oz.au!steve
From: [e-mail] (Steve Taylor)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: John_-_Winston Poll
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Aug 92 06:34:25 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: The Fulcrum Consulting Group
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In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Tom Sullivan) writes:

>Give John a break.  I enjoy his postings, precisely because they are
>more far-out.  The UFO-thing is definately unsolved, and I want to
>hear ALL possibilities.  Most of the sceptical reponses to John's
>posts are also personally insulting to John.  I consider these MUCH
>more offensive than John's info or email-on-the-net.  To think that
>our science is the end-all to knowledge is incredibly naive (I
>personally think that our science is only beginning to understand the
>Universe, and this makes science exciting).  So, if there are
>alternative theories/explainations for all this, I consider them
>welcome.  I'm NOT for censorship, which is what this posting implies.

I agree with most of what you're saying - certainly about John being able
to have his say. However, the real problem seems to be that when John
sends a private email message to someone, it ends up posted to the net. It's
more of a technological than an ideological problem.



                        Steve
                        [e-mail]

>Tom
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Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!munnari.oz.au!deakin.OZ.AU!fulcrum.oz.au!steve
From: [e-mail] (Steve Taylor)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,alt.activism,sci.skeptic,misc.headlines,alt.politics.bush
Subject: Re: UFO "October Surprise" and USA TAKEOVER?!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Aug 92 06:40:03 GMT
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In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Trevor Bauknight) writes:

>Why would you have a problem with law-abiding citizens owning semiautomatic
>weapons?
Well, it's not as if there are two seperate breeds - law abiding citizens and
criminals, who you could tell apart by checking the serial numbers on their
engine block or something.

>What harm could it possibly do?
Hey mom! Watch me make Rover dance!

>Trevor Bauknight         [e-mail]    ...gatech!hubcap!trev



                            Steve
                            [e-mail]
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Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!uknet!warwick!coventry!ccx018
From: [e-mail] (Leslie Griffiths (Griff))
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,alt.activism,sci.skeptic,misc.headlines,alt.politics.bush
Subject: Re: guns and criminals
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Aug 92 07:23:18 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Phil Ngai) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Loren I. Petrich) writes:
>>    And one should learn ways of self-defense using one's own
>>body, so one can deal with assailants not equipped with guns.
>
>How macho of you. My wife rejects your suggestion. So does my mother.
>

I've always thought that the best form of self-defense is to run away. Not
always practicable of course, but being fit-enough to leg it has its
advantages.

Cheers




--
Griff                \\             [e-mail]
^^^^^                        :-=           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
                    //
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!munnari.oz.au!bruce.cs.monash.edu.au!monu6!minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au!rxkgre
From: [e-mail] (Geof Evans)
Subject: Re: We have met the enemy and they are us.
Organization: RMIT Computer Centre, Melbourne Australia.
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1992 14:15:13 EST
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]>
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[e-mail] (frost...) writes:

>Maybe I should write Sci-Fi.

<<<* Yeah ...maybe you should. I would.
--
  ___________________________________________________________________
|| Geof Evans                 | DOMAIN: [e-mail]  ||
|| Melbourne,Australia 3000   | Tel: [phone]             ||
||   If they *really* wanna know...tell 'em that God was drunk.      ||
||___________________________________________________________________||


Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!usc!newshub.sdsu.edu!moho!joel
From: [e-mail] (Joel Wedberg)
Subject: Re: Execute the Messenger (was: Is Bigfoot a Visitor?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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[e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer) writes:
: In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith) writes:
: >to
: >>dominate over  the darkness.Well like I said , I never wake up but that
: >>morning I woke out of a dead sleep & sat strait UP! Looked out of the
: >>screen door to see to my amazement
: >>7-10' creature standing about 5-6' away......staring at me.I could not
:


     I'm not erudite in psychology or dream study, but this
doesn't sound like any kind of a dream to me.
     It sounds like a bullshit story concocted to generate
excitement and get attention.

     If not that, then maybe the dream thing.
     OH, God - the Dream Thing!
     Is it grey?!?

     Aw, c'mon...

     Joel

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Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!usc!newshub.sdsu.edu!moho!joel
From: [e-mail] (Joel Wedberg)
Subject: Re: UFO "October Surprise" and USA TAKEOVER?!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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     I have decided that I have a Constitutional right
to keep and bear a thermonuclear device. I also have
a grenade launcher and a flame thrower, and it's all
for two reasons:

(1) To protect myself from those fascist, repressive
police. (I've been hearing since the sixties that the
storm troopers would be appearing outside all our
doors any time now, so it can't be too much longer...)

(2) Because, because....because I have a RIGHT too,
godammit!

     Incidentally, actually reading the applicable passage
in the Constitution and adding a moment's thought will
reveal that the people have a right to raise an armed
militia, not store ak47's against the possibility that
an individual might feel his rights are being violated
and feel he/she doesn't want to wait for the courts to
sort it out.
     Joel

Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7930 alt.conspiracy:17434 alt.activism:30613 sci.skeptic:28445 misc.headlines:23213
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!sunic!chalmers.se!etek.chalmers.se!etek.chalmers.se!lindq
From: [e-mail] (Johan Lindqvist)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,alt.activism,sci.skeptic,misc.headlines,alt.politics.bush.talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: A racist argument against handgun control legislation.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Aug 92 09:25:44 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Johan Lindqvist)
Organization: Chalmers University of Technology, Gothenburg, SWEDEN
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[e-mail] (Mark) writes:
|>
|> >>First of all, The question was why shouldn't LAW-ABIDING people own weapons.
|> >>Law-Abiding people don't murder people. (by definition)
|>
|>
|> As a matter of fact, my point is, Why should law-abiding people not be
|> allowed to own weapons ?
|>
|> Mark

Because if (all) people own weapons, they become more widespread, also
among criminals. And are peple born criminals? No. They become criminals
by oppurtunity. And one important thing when committing a crime like
robbery, murder or rape is to be able to threat and harm the victim, which
is easily done with a gun. Conclution:
If guns are not so wide spread, criminals would have a hard time getting
them, and violent crimes would, hopefully, be reduced.


______________________________________________________________________________
Johan Lindqvist                     |Due to lack of interest, tomorrow
Gothenburg         Mail:            |has been cancelled.
Sweden      [e-mail]  |
______________________________________________________________________________
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!uknet!warwick!mrccrc!mrccrc!sgamble
From: [e-mail] (Steve Gamble x3293)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Where are you ET? (was Re: Moon Activities?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Aug 92 09:20:02 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
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Reply-To: [e-mail] (Steve Gamble x3293)
Organization: MRC Human Genome Mapping Project Resource Centre, Harrow, UK
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In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Michael Corbin) writes:
>
> I believe you are referring to what is known as Lunar Transient Anomalies
> (LTA).  NASA compiled a paper about this listing the various observations
> that go back a couple of hundred years about people observing strange light
> activity on the moon.  However, it has been theorized that the light
> phenomena seen there may be volcanic activity.  The report from NASA is
> interesting.
>
> Mike
> --
> Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
> UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
> INTERNET: [e-mail]

This NASA report sounds very interesting. On Apollo 17 they found
orange soil which I believe they put down to being (?recent)
volcanic activity.

Do you Michael (or anybodyelse here) have a better/more complete
reference for the NASA report. (Incidentally I have also come
across these events referred to as Transient Lunar Phenomena (TLP's)).

Some flying saucer buffs[1] have in the past claimed that these flashes
of light are caused by opening the hanger doors to let the flyings saucers
out. This is bunk.

Steve.

[1] Technical note :

    These are flying saucer buffs not UFOlogists because:

        a) UFO = Unidentified Flying Object
           These people have indentified their objects to
           be flying saucers (i.e. spacecraft), therefore
           they are not UFO's

        b) the 'ologist' implies at least an attempt to apply
           however badly scientific methodology. As far as I
           can see the proposers of flying saucer bases on the
           moon have no evidence other than it makes a nice
           story.


POSTSCRIPT:

Around 90% of UFO reports can be explained after careful investigation
to be mis-identifications of man-made objects or of natural phenomena.

Around six months ago, I posted inviting those people who felt that
the remaining 10% could be explained as being Flying Saucers (i.e
extraterrestrial spacecraft) to present their evidence.

This generated zero response. Does this mean you guys have no
evidence? Here is another chance to present it.

Steve.


--
(Disclaimer: These are not my employer's opinions, they may not even be mine!)
Steve Gamble, Computing Services, Clinical Research Centre and Human Genome
Mapping Project Resource Centre, Watford Road, Harrow, Middlesex, HA1 3UJ, UK.
Phone: [phone]  JANET: [e-mail] INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!uknet!warwick!mrccrc!mrccrc!sgamble
From: [e-mail] (Steve Gamble x3293)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: More please
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Aug 92 09:27:53 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Steve Gamble x3293)
Organization: MRC Human Genome Mapping Project Resource Centre, Harrow, UK
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Nntp-Posting-Host: germanium

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Steve Sawyer) writes:
> I am an alien being not of this planet communicating to you on behalf of all
> beings from all worlds in all dimensions. There is purpose to this
> communication....please...teach me more about your beliefs and ideals. What is
> it that you strive for? Can I be of help? .


Dear Steve,

What I strive for is for  Aliens like you to be able to present
some convincing evidence that you and similar extraterrestrials
really are ET's.

I and many other readers look forward to seeing your evidence

Steve.

--
(Disclaimer: These are not my employer's opinions, they may not even be mine!)
Steve Gamble, Computing Services, Clinical Research Centre and Human Genome
Mapping Project Resource Centre, Watford Road, Harrow, Middlesex, HA1 3UJ, UK.
Phone: [phone]  JANET: [e-mail] INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!uknet!warwick!mrccrc!mrccrc!sgamble
From: [e-mail] (Steve Gamble x3293)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Moon Activities?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Aug 92 09:36:49 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Steve Gamble x3293)
Organization: MRC Human Genome Mapping Project Resource Centre, Harrow, UK
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Nntp-Posting-Host: germanium

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (kevin fisher U) writes:
  [in reply to Michael Corbin, message deleted]
>
> The only problem with volcanic activity is that the lights were apparently
> appearing in geometric forms (triangles, squares).  The source I read has an
> IMMENSE distrust of NASA (because of it's gov't affiliations :)
>

Can you quote your source for this information, Kevin.
If it is not volcanic, what do you or your source believe causes the
Transient phenomena?

Steve.
--
(Disclaimer: These are not my employer's opinions, they may not even be mine!)
Steve Gamble, Computing Services, Clinical Research Centre and Human Genome
Mapping Project Resource Centre, Watford Road, Harrow, Middlesex, HA1 3UJ, UK.
Phone: [phone]  JANET: [e-mail] INTERNET: [e-mail]
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Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!ftpbox!mothost!lmpsbbs!markr
From: [e-mail] (Mark)
Subject: Re: A racist argument against handgun control legislation.
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: MCIL
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1992 08:20:12 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Alex Bunker) writes:

>How dare you refer to me as a liberal. Liberals are indecisive wishy
>washy middle of the roaders I am a SOCIAL DEMOCRAT! (half way
>between liberal and socialist on the political spectrum)

OK, that's a little better. :-)  But still not my type. :-)

>>I spent three summers in Switzerland, and I have observed a completely
>>different attitude on the part of the Swiss than you have.  Most Swiss
>>take their weapons very seriously.  A large percentage of the people (at
>>least the men) I met, own an automatic assault rifle AND a handgun. Every
>>weekend, the ranges are *full*, and I mean *full*, of people practicing.
>>(Most of my time was spent in the Bernese Oberland region, I don't know exactly
>>what the attitudes are in the other cantons, but I didn't notice any
>>differences on this particular issue)
>
>I was in more Urban Zurich,though I was very young. The Swiss
>people I know are mostly highly educated academics who find
>all this military stuff to be daft nonsense. They refer to their
>compulsory military service as "boy scouts for adults" and
>laugh at all those who are dumb enough to believe that Austria
>Italy France or Germany is planning an invasion.

That explains it, you were in the company of a bunch of liberals :-)
(I read 'highly educated academics' as 'liberals')

Seriously, the people of the countryside take their military very seriously
and don't joke about it.  Besides, 50 years ago people weren't dumb enough to
think that Hitler would attack almost all of Europe *and* Russia. (and look
what actually happened)

Mark


Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!unislc!ach
From: [e-mail] (Andy Hutton)
Subject: Crop Circles?
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1992 11:51:46 GMT
Lines: 8

I have been following the Crop Circle phenomenon for the last few years
in the media. This year however, there seems to be a lack of interest or
possibly activity. Has anyone seen or heard of anything going on lately?

I would appreciate any anecdotal information, opinions, or references
anyone may care to offer.

Thanks ...
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Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.politics.guns
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!gatech!utkcs2!utkux1.utk.edu!utkux1.utk.edu!archer
From: [e-mail] (T. Archer)
Subject: The right to bare arms
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Tennessee Division of Continuing Education
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1992 12:59:19 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (robert i kesten) writes:

>I also think aliens should all have the right to bare
>their arms, tentacles, claws, claspers, and all other
>such appendages as would not of an offensive nature to
>expose to public view.

Whether or not bare arms of any species is offensive to the public view is
irrelivant.  THe right to bare arms is a legitimate form of self-expression
and is protected under the First Amendment.

Notice that I am treating this issue with all the seriousness that it
deserves.


Phbbbbbt!
-=-=-
T. Archer  [e-mail]
University of Tennessee
"Vote Dempublican, it's easier than thinking." -- Unknown
-=-=-
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From: [e-mail] (Michael Corbin)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Gulf Breeze Six In The News Again
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Aug 92 00:55:01 GMT
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ParaNet Information Services

Reprinted  from the Rocky Mountain News, Sunday, August 2,  1992,
Page 16

EX-ARMY INTELLIGENCE ANALYST SETS THE RECORD 'STRAIGHT' ON TRIP

NOW HE TELLS US:  GHOSTS MADE 'EM GO AWOL -- NOT JESUS IN A UFO

Associated Press

Albuquerque  --   When Vance Davis and five of his  friends  went
AWOL,  it was reported that they had gone to a Florida  beach  to
await the Second Coming of Jesus Christ in a UFO.
     No way, says Davis.
     "How  ridiculous  can you get?" he asks.  "Jesus  Christ  is
Jesus Christ.  Why would he come in a flying saucer?"
     No, says Davis, the reason they left their Army intelligence
posts was simple:  Ouija Board spirits told them they were needed
to help lead the world through an impending cataclysm.
     For  two  years, since the six turned up  in  the  Pensacola
suburb  of Gulf Breeze, Fla.  -- unleashing one of  the  weirdest
stories of 1990 -- they have remained silent.
     But  Davis  now says he wants to tell his story to  set  the
record  straight and because, according to the Ouija Board,  race
riots  in  Los Angeles were to be a signal the  group  should  go
public.
     The  six former intelligence analysts, all  with  top-secret
security  clearances, were reported missing from their  Augsburg,
West Germany, base on July 9, 1990.
     They were arrested five days later after one was stopped for
a  broken  tail  light in Gulf Breeze, a  beach  town  known  for
reported UFO sightings.
     Two  weeks later, they were honorably discharged  from  Fort
Knox,  Ky.,  after an Army investigation found  no  evidence  the
soldiers  from the 701st Military Intelligence Brigade  had  been
involved in espionage.
     As  punishment,  they were reduced to the  lowest  rank  and
forfeited  half  a month's pay.  Military  officials  refused  to
discuss the investigation.
     Davis, originally from Valley Center, Kan., had the rank  of
specialist.   Others in the group, with ranks and ages  at  their
arrests,  are:   Pfc. Michael Hueckstaedt, 19, of  Farson,  Wyo.;
Pfc. Kris Perlock, 20, of Osceola, Wis.; Pfc. William Setterberg,
20,  of Pittsburgh; Spc. Kenneth Beason, 26, of  Jefferson  City,
Tenn.; and Sgt. Annette Eccleston, 22, of Hartford, Conn.
     It all began innocently in November 1989, Davis says.
     "We  decided  to do some experimentation  into  things,"  he
says.  "We wanted to see if there was something actually to it --
ESP, parapsychology, ghosts, Tarot cards."
     Davis says the members of the group "hit brick walls"  until
finally they tried a Ouija Board.
     "Someone showed up," he says.  "I'm talking spiritually."
     In  the  months that followed, Davis says,  several  spirits
talked  to the group, predicting the Gulf War and the  1990  Iran
earthquake.
     What they were destined to do, he says, is teach and prepare
people for the coming world chaos.
     "This  will  be  the  changing of the  Earth  and  Jesus  is
involved,"  Davis  says.  "He will come back,  and  Rapture  (the
fundamentalist  Christian belief that believers will be swept  to
heaven before the world ends) is real."
     Davis says that when the group couldn't find a legal way out
of the Army, the Ouija Board told them, "Leave, just leave."
     "We  had top-secret clearances and never did anything  wrong
in  our life," Davis says.  "Being AWOL  was the  furthest  thing
from our mind."
     But  on  July 3, 1990, they hopped a flight from  Munich  to
Atlanta, making their way to Gulf Breeze to see two friends --  a
psychic and her housemate who would become Vance's wife, Iris.
     After  their  arrest and release from the  Army,  the  group
split  up.   Davis, 27, lives in Albuquerque with  his  wife  and
daughter,  does odd jobs and gives seminars  on  "self-sustaining
lifestyles."
     "With  everything  we  were  told  that's  supposed  to   be
occurring  in the next five years, we want to be here  to  help,"
Davis says.
     The  changes,  he  says, include  numerous  earthquakes  and
volcano eruptions -- including a major eruption of Mount  Rainier
in  Washington state -- the devastation of New York City  by  gas
leak, and food and race riots in every major U.S. city that  will
lead to martial law and economic collapse.
     "When all this occurs, we'll be gone again," Davis says.

END ARTICLE
PARANET FILENAME:  080292CO.TXT

--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: [e-mail]
Xref: news.uiowa.edu talk.religion.newage:11090 alt.alien.visitors:7938 sci.skeptic:28450
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Ride on John's Back, Please! (Was: Re: Get Off John's Back
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed,  5 Aug 92 06:32:41 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

Don't have time to say anything but this, remember tonight 1100 PM,
wednesday, astral blast off time, pacific daylight saving time. Don't
be late.
John Winston.
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ley Lines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed,  5 Aug 92 06:34:55 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 2

I don't have time to say anything. I'll to catch you later.
John Winston.
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!charon.amdahl.com!amdahl!JUTS!duts!dfs30
From: [e-mail] (Denise Solis)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Alien descriptions, why the greys??
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Aug 92 13:30:58 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Denise Solis)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA
Lines: 25

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (M Holmes) writes:
>[e-mail] (Joseph Good) writes:
>
>>One theory that has been going around for quite a while is our facination with
>>'grey' type aliens is due to the movie "Close Encounters"...............id much
>

The aliens in this movie along with a lot of the details about the
behavior of the witnesses have been taken from real case histories.
In this case art imitates life. These abductions have been taking place
for a very long time. Long before the movie came out. There are many
details that are taken under hypnosis that are not published so that
there is some control. I have two friends who remember their abductions.
They were told by their hypnotherapist not to reveal certain aspects of
their abductions to anyone in case their memories influence anyone else.
One of these friends has physical marks on her body from the procedures
performed on her. I personally believe her because I know she doesn't
have that much imagination. Got to run.
                                     Denise

--
=========================================================================
>>>>>>>>>>>||      Copyright (c) Denise faith Solis 1992    ||<<<<<<<<<<<
>>>>>>>>>>>||             [e-mail]         ||<<<<<<<<<<<
=========================================================================
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!dtix!darwin.sura.net!mips!odin!slugo.corp.sgi.com!rodb
From: [e-mail] (Rod Beckwith)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Execute the Messenger (was: Is Bigfoot a Visitor?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Aug 92 14:43:08 GMT
References: <#ctm#[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Net News)
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
Lines: 49
Nntp-Posting-Host: slugo.corp.sgi.com

[e-mail] (Robert Sheaffer) writes:
: In article <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] (Rod Beckwith) writes:
: >to
: >>dominate over  the darkness.Well like I said , I never wake up but
that
: >>morning I woke out of a dead sleep & sat strait UP! Looked out of the
: >>screen door to see to my amazement
: >>7-10' creature standing about 5-6' away......staring at me.I could not
:


>>     I'm not erudite in psychology or dream study, but this
>>doesn't sound like any kind of a dream to me.
>>     It sounds like a bullshit story concocted to generate
>>excitement and get attention.

>>     If not that, then maybe the dream thing.
>>     OH, God - the Dream Thing!
>>     Is it grey?!?

>>     Aw, c'mon...

>>     Joel

Joel,Greg,Robert & the rest of you closeminded assuming pinheads,

I can truly see why more people will not come forward to tell about their
experiences. Most  will probably take them to the grave rather than be
subjected to character asassination & ridicule.We will never get anywhere
in trying to figure out some of the most confounding myteries on this
globe. With people such as yourselves, ready to pounce on anyone that has
an experience that you can't
understand.

As far as it being a b.s. story..........Read between the lines -FOAD-

Rod



--
Rod Beckwith     |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Datacom I/S      |"The great obstacle of progress is not ignorance,
[e-mail]|but the illusion of knowledge."
                 |$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$



Xref: news.uiowa.edu talk.religion.newage:11092 alt.alien.visitors:7942 sci.skeptic:28455
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Saga of the Family of Light I - Pleiadians13
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed,  5 Aug 92 07:31:08 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 340

The Saga of the Family of Light Part 1

Over [the last couple of years] we have discussed many ideas with you
concerning boundaries that you have set around your definition of reality.
[There] is a need for each of you to examine the boundaries that you have
set around yourselves. Each of you believes that you have evolved, that you
have a large picture, that you see many things. Relative to where you have
journeyed from, indeed, you have made progress. However, we guarantee you
that you are not seeing the boundary that you presently set for yourself,
the boundary that still defines what you believe you can and cannot do.
This is what tethers you to this version, this frequency of reality.

These boundaries that you set, that you advertise and announce about
yourselves, keep you from moving with the information that is beginning to
awaken inside of you. The information is part of the spiritual upliftment.
Different layers of reality are removed so that you become more in tune
with the realms that are called spirit. That is what spiritual advancement
is.

We want you to give up boundaries. We want you to stop defining and
protecting every aspect of your lives.

Light represents information. Darkness represents ignorance, not being
informed. You have heard us speak many times of the Family of Light or the
White T-Shirt and the Dark T-Shirt teams. You represent a return of the
White T-Shirts. That's basically who you are. You are members of the Family
of Light and we want you to contemplate who Light are. We want that to be a
concept that filters through your consciousness.

You all know that the body is changing. There is a rearranging and a
rebundling of the light encoded filaments that have been scattered inside
of your physical body. Your bodies are being retooled, redesigned. Light
encoded filaments make up the strand which forms each helix [of the DNA].
As this energy [during the energy accelerations] moves into the body, it is
like a gridwork of energy that is superimposed or aligned over the physical
body. All of the bodies must be intact in order for the light encoded
filament bundling to be affected. What does this mean?

Remember there are millions of light encoded filaments. They have been
purposely scattered in your DNA so that a long time ago when you were
created, you could be controlled by some. There were those who were of
Light who biogenetical created a great liberation within one species of the
planet. Your reality, your world, at different times was raided. There were
other forms of extraterrestrial stewardship or cosmic kings that came in
and took over the project of your earth. This has been called "the fall" in
religious terms. A change of administration took place.

These new administrators on your planet called themselves God with a big
"G" when they were really gods with a little "g." They did a biogenetic
manipulation upon many members of the species. Your relatives that made up
the organization of the DNA material were put asunder, or scattered within
the body. That formed tiny fibers of data that were at random within the
cells of the body. These are the light encoded filaments.

The light encoded filaments are beginning to find their counterparts and
data, information, history that is your right to know, is organizing itself
inside of your bodies in conjunction with the rays and the gridworks that
are being put over your physical bodies, you who are members of the Family
of Light.

It is an awesome task to carry light. Once you allow light to come into the
body you begin the process of change. [It] is not always a joyous,
uplifting, fun-filled time as some of you have discovered. In this process,
when things are not so fun-filled, the first thing that you all do in order
to keep yourself from evolving and from changing, you immediately begin to
respond to all emotional events with fear. You blame someone else and you
whine and you complain and you feel and believe that someone did something
to you.

The rest of the planet believes this. The rest of the planet are not
members of the Family of Light. There are millions of you here, of course,
and light is returning to this planet where the Dark T-shirts were in
charge for a very, very long time, where the Dark T-shirts fed off of your
emotions of fear and negativity and war and greed. Because this is a free
will universe, all of this has been allowed. And, of course, Prime Creator,
First Cause, is the Dark Team as well as the Family of Light. Prime
Creator, First Cause is all things.

We teach you in terms of stories. Some day perhaps you will see through
some of the stories that we tell and you will not need these stories any
longer. You will be able to smash paradigms and come into a knowing of
larger realities. Until that day, we speak to you in stories so that we can
hold your interest and entice you along to areas where you are petrified to
go and yet in areas where you have committed to the deepest portion of your
soul to journey

You have agreed to carry light and to return light to this planet.  So it
is that as light begins to fill your bodies, your memories must be opened
and you must evolve as the DNA evolves, into a multi-dimensional self, a
multidimensional reality.

EDITOR'S NOTE: In earlier tapes the Pleiadians explained that as we are
evolving biogenetically our DNA, which was a double helix, has now become a
triple helix. The triple will become six, six will become nine and nine
will become twelve. Each new strand relates to a corresponding chakra in
the twelve chakra system.

When the triple helix was born, there was a rebundling of certain
information which coincided with the double helix as your scientific
community would describe it. There was stirring up and there were memories
and there was energy that needed to be brought to the surface. The first
two strands [the double helix] that are in each person relate to the first
two chakras the base chakra and the chakra of sexuality.

The triple helix relates to the third chakra, that of feeling. As the
triple helix came into blossoming and as the triple helix began to release
its data, as the nervous system continued to evolve, the brain began to
move into a functional capacity - full function you are striving for today
rather than a mere 5-8%. This mutation process is all of the data. The
complete history of yourselves in the universe is in these light encoded
filaments which have been scattered inside of the self by beings who did
not want you to be that talented because they could not control you.

You are now coming to the time where there are three more strands so there
[will] be six strands. The six strands will work you through the heart
center, the throat center and the third eye center.

Anything that you have not let go of that has to do with identity,
sexuality and feeling if you have not worked through these and simply used
the material of your own history to create soap operas around your life
that you want to run and have a non-ending show, you will get stuck in
these areas. As the other frequencies, as the other DNA's begin to form, if
you do not clear this stuff, everything will go into chaos in your body.

The self must explore all of the history of this body so that you can
accept who and what this body is, and who and what this body has done and
what has been done to it. If and when you can reach this place of
understanding why you created others coming into your life to create great
disturbances, then ideally you will put yourself in a position to sanely
explore the channels of the multi-dimensional self where we guarantee you,
you are not going to be pleased at what you have done.

Many of you have been practicing the art of projection. That means that you
blame someone else for what you have created. That is acting completely
against all that we have taught you. No one else does anything to you ever.
You create your reality. In order for you to get the body ready to move
into the multi-dimensional version of self, you must stop judging it.

The multi-dimensional self is where you literally begin to feel this data
from the light-encoded filaments that is your history, that is your
identity, that is the history of your world on this planet and of f of it.
In order for you to have this history revealed to you as a frequency, you
must move out of right and wrong and judgment. You must smash the
paradigms.

We have carried the idea of sexuality into many of these concepts. A long
time ago we taught you that sexuality is a frequency of ecstasy that was
not taken away from you like the data in the DNA. You were left with the
frequency of orgasmic experience in sexuality so that you could remember
your higher identity.

When this energy, or this history of yourself begins to reveal itself and
you begin to discover who you are, you have to unite many bodies in order
to receive the full impact of the gridwork of your identity to let the 12
helixes fit in the body, to let the light encoded filaments rearrange
themselves. It has to do with the mental body, which is of course connected
to the physical body. Mentally you can send an image or you can stir up the
physical body. Everyone gets stuck in the emotional body. The emotional
body is connected to the spiritual body. The emotional body is the body
that everybody wants to skip. "I want to evolve. I want a rapid
acceleration and I do not want to go through the feeling center to do it."

You are connected to your multidimensional selves through your feelings. So
it is through your feelings where primarily humans get stuck. That is why
men have given up feeling. In your society, men have simply bypassed or
recircuited the energy from the first chakra, the second chakra and they
move up into thinking. That is why the female vibration has been very
frustrated with the male vibration because the male vibration does not
feel.

The male vibrations have lost their feeling into their second chakra. It
has been very frustrating. If the male vibration felt, they could not go
out and commit war. You cannot feel and take the life of another. In
general, if your feeling center is open, you are connected to how someone
else is. You would feel their pain and it would be a rare group of people
who would get off on that kind of pain and killing. War occurs because
feeling centers are shut down. So the male vibration has been in agony by
having feelings locked into the penis for all these years.

You may think it is a joke. It is not a joke. That is what allowed the
patriarchal society to develop without feeling men. Your world has been
organized by men for quite a number of thousands of years as the woman or
the goddess energy has decided to be quiet for awhile. Now you are
experiencing a reawakening of the goddess and the merging of the male and
the female identity within each person which has been called on your planet
the twin flame. The twin flame is the male and the female within each
person.

QUESTION: Sometimes the things you really want to experience or that you
crave to express and you feel like are truly you, you're terrified of
experiencing. Are the craving and the fear somehow connected to the fact
that the DNA has been scattered and the light is in there but you can't
seem to get to it?

PLEIADIANS: Gold star for you. That is a very good stretch of understanding
what you fight with to understand. The physical bodies of the creatures of
earth were designed. You all represent the renegade group of Light. A
renegade factor of Light shall we say. You have agreed to come back on the
planet. You are on assignment. You come into these physical bodies and take
them over. You intend through the power of your spiritual identity to
change the physical body. You all selected with great care the genetic line
that would best give you a head start with all of this. So each of you
genetically chose your parentage or your genetic genealogical history
somewhere where members of the Family of Light have threaded through your
own genes.

When you begin to awaken this identity, this reality, when the coding
begins to be fired in you, you must follow. The logical mind wants to fight
with the coding. It is the logical mind to some extent that has a memory of
the pain that was suffered when the fall took place. When man existed in
his right domain, man had the ability to understand many realities. Man had
the ability to be multi-dimensional, to be one and equal with the gods. The
gods raided this reality just like corporate raiders come in and take over
a place because the pension funds are in great abundance the funds upon
this planet were in great abundance. So long ago, in order to have these
gods be believed as gods, they rearranged you genetically.

The DNA was like a fantastic library [before it was scattered]. Imagine
going into a library and pulling all of the books off of the shelf and
letting them all be heaped into the center of the room and then destroying
the card catalog so there is no way to find information. That information
exists, but if it is not stumbled upon it is lost. It is not
cross-referenced.

That is what happened with your genetic structure. That is when the Family
of Light was scattered from the planet. The Dark Team, that which operated
out of ignorance, came in. The body carries a fear and a memory of striving
for knowledge that the gods represented, that they took away from you. The
gods who did this are magnificent space creatures. They can do many kinds
of manipulations and work with realities in many different ways. When this
occurred, man began to be in ignorance and man began to call these space
creatures God with a big "g."

God with a big "g" has never visited this planet. God with a big "g" is in
all things. You have only dealt with gods with a little "g" who have wanted
to confuse you, who have thought of this as a place that they own out in
the galactic fringes of this free-will universe.

QUESTION: It seems such a paradox; that on one hand we create our reality
and on the other hand we have been genetically altered into ignorant
beings.

PLEIADIANS: Yes. This is the paradox we want you to be confused with at
this time.

You see, both of those concepts are boundaries. They define your reality.
There are enough of you awakened. You are not alone. The process is
occurring so rapidly that you are ready to have a huge realization about
your identity as members of the Family of Light. You must begin to
integrate the concept that, yes, you are biogenetically manipulated and you
create your own reality.

In this free-will zone all is allowed. One of the primary lessons that has
been going on on this planet is, in a free-will zone, authority,
sovereignty, tends to be the major issue all over the universe. You have
the free-will to give up your authority and you allow others to define your
existence. Others created you just like you create many things. You bring
light to things you do not understand. Ideally, the things that you bring
light to and the things that you become steward over, you have a certain
degree of responsibility to. You have a certain compassion of stewardship
and you balance out your power over what you create. The beings who created
you, [had] their creation raided. Others came in and took over in this
free-will zone where all is allowed.

You, as members of the Family of Light, have designed this time to alter
the planet, to eventually alter the whole universe. The Family of Light is
very vast. There are many more of many other kinds of families besides
light. We are simply talking to you about light because that is your
primary affiliation at this time. Perhaps [later] you will begin to realize
what is beyond light, what else there is besides light.

QUESTION: When the DNA was scattered, where did the information go?

PLEIADIANS: It was all set asunder so that there was no way to make sense
of the information. So, how do you find the information? The information is
going to reveal itself to you. That is the process. You don't have to go
looking for it. This is your heritage. This is who you are. It is the
memories that are going to come flooding your consciousness. As the DNA
begins to form these new strands, these new strands will travel along a
nervous system in the body that is being developed at this time. Over this
last year we worked with you to develop the nervous system, to pull light
into the body, to oxygenate the system, to learn how to move through energy
accelerations and call more ideas, more experiences into the body. As this
process begins to grow itself and nurture itself in the body, you simply
observe it.

You want to know how to access it. When you get stuck in your dramas, that
is when you keep reading one of the books and don't let all of the
information of the other books come together. There is a whole story.

The story has to do with your whole soul. The entire soul. You are, as
members of the Family of Light, agreeing to hold in your physical body,
conscious awareness of all of your- existence and to accept what you have
done, the parts you played in all these existences. And then, to raid
different realities, to change them according to the dictates of your
agreement as a representative of the Family of Light. You have free will
within this, of course.

The triple helix brings you into the feeling center. The feeling center is
emotion. Emotion is linked, no doubt about it, and it is your road, it is
your bridge, your ticket to the spiritual self.

When people don't like or deny the emotional self, they can't get in to the
spiritual realms. The Christed one said "Know thyself." That was given on
the planet a long time ago and distorted so that people could not
understand how grand indeed they were, that all they had to do was
rearrange themselves.

It is always internal. When people want to know how to go about bringing
the change upon the planet, we've always said work with yourself. Develop
yourself. Move beyond the boundaries of self. Learn to become
multi-dimensional. Learn to exist in the astral world. Learn to travel
beyond the physical body. Stop defining the body as ending "here" which is
what society encourages you to do so that you can be controlled.

In a free will zone control is part of the game because, in a free will
zone someone is going to say, "I want to be in charge." You are members of
the Family of Light. To what hierarchy and to what gods do you answer?


  The Pleiadians are a collective of extraterrestrials from the star system
the Pleiades. They have formed a tremendous society which operates with
love, with ideas and ideals that we are yet unfamiliar with. The Pleiadians
call themselves our ancient family because many of us came here from the
Pleiades to participate in the new experiment of Earth. The Pleiadians are
here as ambassadors from another universe to help Earth through her
transition from the third dimension to the fourth dimension and to assist
each of us in our personal endeavors of awakening, remembering and knowing.

  Barbara Marciniak is an internationally known trance channel from North
Carolina. She began channeling in 1988. The strength and purity of the
message she is bringing very quickly captured the hearts of many seekers
looking to be all that they can be Barbara has channeled at various Expos
and for groups across the United States, in Peru, Egypt, Germany and Japan.

  You may contact Barbara at Bold Connections Unlimited, P. O. Box 6521,
Raleigh, NC 27628.

Copyright by Barbara Marciniak,  reprinted from Connecting Link Magazine
Issue 13 with permission.
Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7943 talk.religion.newage:11093 sci.skeptic:28456
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re Hatton: CIA or ET
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed,  5 Aug 92 07:38:26 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Lines: 80

Len asks
>Does anyone out here have any information regarding George Green? There are
>a growing number of people (myself included) who are beginning to feel that
>Green is actively working with the CIA to produce disinformation regarding
>UFOs and ETs. A good mystery always did stir up my circulation! :^)

>Does anyone have any info on this guy?

>Thank You
>Len

No folks,  I did not pay Len to ask that! :-).  But since he did I feel a
necessity to respond to that publicly.  I am a champion of channeling and
consider Hatton to be the ahole of the universe, not in the least
channeling. To repeat what I have said in another post,  the Hatton material
will cause brain rot. And I mean that in the truest sense of the meaning.
In the few paragraphs I have read I have seen numerous lies and deceptions.
The material is designed to keep one in their negative ego and in fear and
paranoia. George Green is using Billie Meiers pictures of the Beamships and
Laserguns from the Pleiades as a front for his phony channeling operation.
The channel hooked George Green by sending him a letter saying he was one
of 25 protected by commander supreme ahole of the universe, Hatton.  There
was an entity named Hatton who,  years ago,  came through a person named
Richard Miller who started an organization called Solar Cross.  Their
information and personalities are entirely different. As an example of lies
from the books, I will give you a good one.  In the book Stargate Hatton
says Samjase and Asket are from the Pleiades. Anyone who has studied the
case knows that Samjase was from the Pleiades and that Asket is from the
DAL Universe, one parallel to ours.  Now come on, if Hatton is some kind of
commander, wouldn't one think a commander would know which universe those
ladies were flying their beamships from?

The Hatton that is coming through American West Publishers is probably the
entity of Calvin coming back to preach more hell and damnation.  If any of
you chose to rot your mind with Cosmic Calvinism go ahead read some Hatton.
But please remember Hatton IS NOT CHANNELING!!!!! Channeling brings about a
feeling of love and light, inspiration, upliftment, and increased life
energy (more living).

I recently learned something from a entity I am a new student of, named,
Philip. Hanging out in thoughts and emotions of fear and its associates
like death or imagined threats to survival cause the creation of lots of
imagined death scenes.  These activities generate sub personalities, these
subpersonalites can become so strong they take over the body and lifetime
by inflecting the genetic memory from past lives containing fear, death,
etc onto the body.  This subpersonality can completely idle the spiritual
personality that came here for its specific goals. Also there is another
phenomena that occurs.  We are overly addicted to death. So the thoughts of
fear and death cause psychological deaths to occur to feed the addiction.
But here is the important point.  Each one of these death thoughts we have
causes the soul (life force) to separate more from the body. It is like the
subpersonality has taken over and the soul-lifeforce-spirit withdraws
because it knows there is not going to be any time or body to fulfill its
purposes here.  It is truly,  literally a lost soul. That is the true sin
of American West Publishing.  They are not only turning people off to
channeling,  they are presenting the bleakest of an infinite number of
possible futures. Few, if any of Hattons doomsday predictions have come true
or ever will.

One of their followers showed up at our Family of Light meeting and was
selling welding glasses to block out the light because Hatton is telling him
he should be prepared for the worst.  I found out that what I call light
and what others call light is entirely different.



Don Showen

BTW I printed 12 Meier photos in black and white on one 8x10 sheet. The 12
consist of 2 with Meier holding the Lasergun, 1 of Meier, the beautiful 1
of Samjases beamship, the one with the jet flying by the Beamship, the one
with witnesses and a beamship in the same picture. 1 with 3 ships in it, 3
of a ship flying, 1 of the newer class of ship parked in Meiers front yard,
2 of that same ship flying by trees, and 1 of a ship touching a tree, and
last a picture of the lady from the DAL universe, Asket.  I am willing to
share them with anyone who sends a SASE to

Pleiadian Group
1030 Corvette Dr.
San Jose, Ca. 95129
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Gulf Breeze Six In The News Again
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News Daemon)
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Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1992 15:29:38 GMT
Lines: 23


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Michael Corbin) writes...
>ParaNet Information Services
>
>Reprinted  from the Rocky Mountain News, Sunday, August 2,  1992,
>Page 16
>
>EX-ARMY INTELLIGENCE ANALYST SETS THE RECORD 'STRAIGHT' ON TRIP
>
>NOW HE TELLS US:  GHOSTS MADE 'EM GO AWOL -- NOT JESUS IN A UFO
>     The  six former intelligence analysts, all  with  top-secret
>security  clearances, were reported missing from their  Augsburg,
>     The  changes,  he  says, include  numerous  earthquakes  and
>volcano eruptions -- including a major eruption of Mount  Rainier
>in  Washington state -- the devastation of New York City  by  gas
>leak, and food and race riots in every major U.S. city that  will
>lead to martial law and economic collapse.
>     "When all this occurs, we'll be gone again," Davis says.

Well OK... military intelligence analysts with top-secret security
clearances are taking their orders from ouija boards... that explains
a lot about government... sort of leaves you with a warm fuzzy feeling
about the guys guarding our nukes, huh? :-)
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From: [e-mail] (Chris Rutkowski)
Subject: Re: Crop Circles?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1992 15:01:05 GMT
Lines: 104

In <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Andy Hutton) writes:

>I have been following the Crop Circle phenomenon for the last few years
>in the media. This year however, there seems to be a lack of interest or
>possibly activity. Has anyone seen or heard of anything going on lately?

>I would appreciate any anecdotal information, opinions, or references
>anyone may care to offer.

Sure, Andy.  Latest word is that about one formation is found per day
in Britain, mostly in Wiltshire.  Some interesting complexes, but
mostly singles.  The media are staying away in droves because of last
year's scandal.

Meanwhile, here in NA:


       1992 North American Crop Circles and/or UGMs
           Reported to NAICCR as of 29 July 1992

920426    Jonesboro, Georgia
-  a "formation" of crop circles, "exactly" like those found in
1991 in the same location, was discovered.
Source: Rosemary Ellen Guiley; Vance Tiede

9204??           , New Hampshire
-  UGMs were found following a small local flap of UFO reports.
Source: Rosemary Ellen Guiley; Vance Tiede

920506    near Edmonton, Alberta
-  a "space cookie" UGM was discovered in a meadow.  It is a
perfect circle, 6 metres in diameter. Its depth varies from 5 cm
to 31 cm.  Grass is growing straight up both inside and outside
the circle.  No tracks were found leading to the area.  The UGM
is not a sinkhole.
Source: Gordon Kijek

920525    Limerick, Pennsylvania
-  at least 12 "matted down" areas were found in a wheatfield north of
Philadelphia.  Three were circles about five feet in diameter, arranged
in a triangle.  One feature was "T-shaped".  Soil samples taken by a UFO
investigator "showed no irregularities".  Geiger counter readings were
also normal.  Although a hoax was suspected by the UFO investigator,
the owner of the field believes that the UGMs were caused by lodging,
wind and fertilizer damage, and that "It happens every year".
Source: Steve Bernheisel on FIDONET; UFO Newsclipping Service #275

920627    Raeford, North Carolina
-  a circle of flattened grass was found in a hay field following
a CE2 UFO sighting.  A loud noise, "like a freight train", was
heard, and two witnesses ran to look out their front door.  A
object "the size of a swimming pool", "like orange windows lla
around it", was in a field about 300 feet away from their house.
When they went to call other witnesses, the object disappeared.
Source: Patrick Kirol on FIDONET

9206??               , Massachusetts
-  a small area of flattened cattails was found in a marsh close
to a major highway and reported as a crop circle.
Source: Tom Randolph on DEC COM via INTERNET

920701    St. Adolphe, Manitoba
-  nine "horseshoe-shaped" patches of flattened grass were found
on either side of a brook in a Winnipeg suburb. Because of rece
storms and heavy rainfall, lodging was thought to be the cause
Source: Guy Westcott; NAICCR

920705    Hobbema, Alberta
-  two ovals of flattened barley were found in a field after
unusual lights were observed descending to the ground.  The
largest UGM has a major axis of 47 feet.  The crop is pushed away
uniformly from the centers of the patches, but the centers are
"clumped", like breaking waves.  Barley inside the circles is
"white", and devoid of colour.  It was later suggested that the areas
were due to spilled seeds and fertilizer, combined with lodging.
Source: Gord Kijek

920715    St. Adolphe, Manitoba
-  a field beside a highway was discovered to have numerous patches of
flattened crop, in irregular patterns.  The formations were discovered
by the same person who found case 920701.  Investigation by NAICCR and
interviews with the owner of the field established that the crop had
been laid down by strong winds and heavy rain.  The person who
discovered the formations was convinced that aliens created the
flattened patches.
Source: NAICCR

920721    Friedensruh, Manitoba
-  a farmer found a triangular area of flattened/swirled grass which
was surrounded by an electric fence.  The dimensions were 31x27x17
feet.  Local residents could not explain the phenomenon.  However,
NAICCR investigators found evidence that animals had trampled the site.
Source: NAICCR


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

P.S.   NAICCR is interested in hearing about additional cases.


--
Chris Rutkowski - [e-mail]
Royal Astronomical Society of Canada
University of Manitoba - Winnipeg, Canada
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From: [e-mail] (Ithlial the Archer)
Subject: Re: Is this still alt.alien.visitors?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 92 15:02:16 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 20

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Joe Citro III) writes:
>Hey Rods right!  maybe we (those who post on alt.alien.visitors) should
>post information about the 'Greys' on talk.politics.guns  .  I'm beginning
>to feel as though this newsgroup has been invaded!
>
>                                        Joseph A.Citro III
>
Let's do it!  :-)

[e-mail]

My opinions, mine, mine, mine!

I bet the main reason the police keep people away from a plane crash
is they don't want anybody walking in and lying down in the crash
stuff, then, when some comes up, act like they just woke up and go,
"What, was THAT?!"



Xref: news.uiowa.edu talk.religion.newage:11094 alt.alien.visitors:7947 sci.skeptic:28465
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From: [e-mail] (Ithlial the Archer)
Subject: Re: Ride on John's Back, Please! (Was: Re: Get Off John's Back
Message-ID: <-wwmz![e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 92 15:24:24 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 17

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>They found a planet suitable for the creation of life and they started
>a colossal experiment....
To discover the Ultimate Question about Life, The Universe and Everthing!
;)

>End of Part 1.  John Winston.


Ithlial


To me, boxing is like ballet, except there's no music, no choreography,
and the dancers hit eachother.



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From: [e-mail] (Ithlial the Archer)
Subject: Re: A question for John_-_Winston
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 92 15:35:44 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 18

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear U-all: I have been told that Multu posts about 20k of information
>and is beloved of people on this net and in Europe. I's like to meet
>him. It sounds like he has something to say and says it.
>John Winston.

20k per what? second, day, century?  To which news group?
Where is Multu from specifically?  Is the sky blue or does it
just look that way?

Just curious.

Ithlial


I bet the main reason the police keep people away from a plane crash
is they don't want anybody walking in and lying down in the crash
stuff, then, when some comes up, act like they just woke up and go,
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From: [e-mail] (Paul Fidler)
Subject: Re: UFO "October Surprise" and USA TAKEOVER?!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Nntp-Posting-Host: clodii.columbiasc.ncr.com
Organization: NCR E&M Columbia SC
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 92 16:17:37 GMT
Lines: 22

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Don Allen) writes:
>
>
>        Stage 6:  In February or March, 1993, President Bush will be
>
>        assassinated by the conspirators and Vice President Dan Quayle
>
>        will become President of the United States (this an option if
>
>        Bush moves too slowly).  The Constitution of the United States is
>


Sooooo.....Does this mean Clinton *doesn't* win?


>        URGENT:  MAKE 30 COPIES AND MAIL TO MEDIA, POLITICIANS, CHURCHES,


 A man in Peoria, Il. did, and the next day he won $2,183,937.59 in the lottery.


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From: [e-mail] (Robert J. Wade)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,alt.activism,sci.skeptic,misc.headlines,alt.politics.bush
Subject: Re: UFO "October Surprise" and USA TAKEOVER?!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Aug 92 16:44:48 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET news)
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Lines: 10

>
>I for one am tired of seeing the claim that the right to bear penis
>substitutes is guaranteed by our Constitution. The days when a militia
>of gentleman farmers could determine the social order are dead.


well then, you need to get the 2nd amendment removed from the constitution.
but until then, we all have RKBA.  and just because you think it isn't
needed anymore doesn't mean that it isn't....or won't be...sometime in
 the future.
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From: [e-mail] (Blair P. Houghton)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: The right to bare arms
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Aug 92 16:05:58 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Intel Corp., Chandler, Arizona
Lines: 20

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (T. Archer) writes:
>Whether or not bare arms of any species is offensive to the public view is
>irrelivant.  THe right to bare arms is a legitimate form of self-expression
>and is protected under the First Amendment.

Indeed, the right to bare boobs is now codified thus, in New
York State.

Canada is attempting to follow suit.

                --Blair
                  "Although the one woman I saw
                   on CNN doing the interview
                   raised her arm to take a swig
                   of Crystal Spring or something,
                   and revealed what appeared to
                   be a large muskrat living on
                   her armpit, so I'll defer any
                   trips to upstate NY until the
                   parka season, thanks..."
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Gregg Brown)
Subject: Re: Is this still alt.alien.visitors?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1992 16:22:56 GMT
Lines: 20

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Joe Citro III) writes:
>Hey Rods right!  maybe we (those who post on alt.alien.visitors) should
>post information about the 'Greys' on talk.politics.guns  .  I'm beginning
>to feel as though this newsgroup has been invaded!
>
>                                        Joseph A.Citro III
>

No Kidding! Yeah, this is still alt.alien.visitors. Just to prove it, here is
a request for information:

Can any one give me more information on the possibility that the "UFO
Abductions" that we are all so fond of tallking about are the possible
surfacing of ancient ancestral memories? Doe anyone know anything about
ancient ancestral memories and their surfacing in later generations?

See! No guns.

Gregg.

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From: [e-mail] (Robert J. Wade)
Subject: Re: Outlaw guns? NO!  Register guns! YES! (was:Re: UFO "October Surprise"
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET news)
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1992 18:18:12 GMT
Lines: 16

>
>Well argued! However, you have completely missed the *true* debate.
>The true debate is over handgun registration, manditory waiting
>periods for handgun purchase, and elimination of "cop-killer" bullets.
>Should we do any of these things? The NRA says "NO!"  I say "YES!" to
>all of them. If you, Gerry, want to enter into the real debate, then
>perhaps you can argue why there should be no registration of handguns,
>no waiting period to purchase them, and why we should continue to sell
>copkiller bullets.
>                - Lee Campbell  <[e-mail]>
wake up lee.  we do register hanguns, we do require waiting periods(in most
states...unless you have a license...in which case you have already been
fingerprinted and checked out), and what the hell are you talking about
"copkiller" bullets.  *any* bullet fired into someones head will likely kill
them...cop or not.  teflon bullets are not available where i am from.

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From: [e-mail] (Rogue Agent)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Saga of the Family of Light I - Pleiadians13
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Aug 92 17:54:03 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Comp. Sci. @ NU
Lines: 11

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>The Saga of the Family of Light Part 1
[...]
>EDITOR'S NOTE: In earlier tapes the Pleiadians explained that as we are
>evolving biogenetically our DNA, which was a double helix, has now become a
>triple helix.

This is silly.  I mean, go on all you want about 'light filaments' in DNA.
But don't tell me DNA has three strands.  It just makes you sound stupid.

    RA
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From: [e-mail] (Rogue Agent)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Re Hatton: CIA or ET
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Aug 92 18:12:00 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Comp. Sci. @ NU
Lines: 36

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
[...]
>As an example of lies
>from the books, I will give you a good one.  In the book Stargate Hatton
>says Samjase and Asket are from the Pleiades. Anyone who has studied the
>case knows that Samjase was from the Pleiades and that Asket is from the
>DAL Universe, one parallel to ours.  Now come on, if Hatton is some kind of
>commander, wouldn't one think a commander would know which universe those
>ladies were flying their beamships from?

Yeah, but you know beaurocracies...and what if they lied on their
Interstellar Driver's Licence applications?  I'd be embarrassed to admit
I was from the DAL Universe, too - have you ever been there?  Buncha
damn hicks!  They don't even get MTV!

[...]
>BTW I printed 12 Meier photos in black and white on one 8x10 sheet. The 12
>consist of 2 with Meier holding the Lasergun, 1 of Meier, the beautiful 1
>of Samjases beamship, the one with the jet flying by the Beamship, the one
>with witnesses and a beamship in the same picture. 1 with 3 ships in it, 3
>of a ship flying, 1 of the newer class of ship parked in Meiers front yard,
>2 of that same ship flying by trees, and 1 of a ship touching a tree, and
>last a picture of the lady from the DAL universe, Asket.  I am willing to
>share them with anyone who sends a SASE to
>
>Pleiadian Group
>1030 Corvette Dr.
>San Jose, Ca. 95129

These sound way way cool - beamships, laserguns, people from the DAL Universe
...ya know, all the photos from my trip there were confiscated at Stargate
Customs.
Seriously though - anyone seen em?  I suppose it'd be asking to much
to impose on some kind soul to turn these into GIFs...

    RA
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From: [e-mail] (Rogue Agent)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ley Lines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Aug 92 17:43:01 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Comp. Sci. @ NU
Lines: 7

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>I don't have time to say anything. I'll to catch you later.
>John Winston.

I don't have anything to say either.  Thought you'd like to know.  Or not.

    RA
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From: [e-mail] (Ray Rosch)
Subject: Re: Ride on John's Back, Please! (Was: Re: Get Off John's Back
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1992 18:38:10 GMT
Lines: 9


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes...
>---"Do you come from another planet?" "Yes, I do," "Is this the first

    ROFL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

****
Disclaimer: Opinions expressed do not in any way reflect those of my employer
****
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Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!srg!spica!dpipes
From: [e-mail] (Dave Pipes x4552)
Subject: Re: Ride on John's Back, Please! (Was: Re: Get Off John's Back
Organization: just me
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 92 18:31:43 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Followup-To: sci.skeptic
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet news user)
Lines: 21

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>---"Do you come from another planet?" "Yes, I do," "Is this the first
>time you have visited the Earth?" "Oh, no!" "Do you come here often?" "Very
>often is the least I could say."
>Claude came to talk with the alien for six  consecutive days and talked
>for one hour each time. He was told about our origin, our probable future
>as well as the essential information regarding the universe and our place
>in it. He was told that a long time ago, the secret of life was discovered
>by successfully creating 100% synthetic human beings through a perfect
>understanding of deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA) or genetic engineering.
>They found a planet suitable for the creation of life and they started
>a colossal experiment. End of Part 1.  John Winston.

So much for the fossil record...Tell us, John, why is our DNA so close to
that of the Great Apes, if this is true?  Especially if they created us
and THEN found the planet?

John, you seem like a nice guy, but the science angle just doesn't add up.
Oh well.
        David Pipes
[e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!acd4!TEFS1!gvb
From: [e-mail] (Gregg Brown)
Subject: K-2 Radio Transmission
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1992 17:25:56 GMT
Lines: 8

I have just received the K-2 Radio Transmission recording. Its on a 60
minute tape and fills the entire thing. I ordered it from Advent for
five bucks. Being somewhat of an SWL, I was interested to hear its content.
Anyone else ever heard it?

Gregg.


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From: [e-mail] (Leonard Spani)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Re Hatton: CIA or ET
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Aug 92 19:20:42 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Organization: MPR Teltech Ltd., Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Lines: 36

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
|> Len asks
|> >Does anyone out here have any information regarding George Green? There are
|> >a growing number of people (myself included) who are beginning to feel that
|> >Green is actively working with the CIA to produce disinformation regarding
|> >UFOs and ETs. A good mystery always did stir up my circulation! :^)
|>
|> >Does anyone have any info on this guy?
|>
|> >Thank You
|> >Len
|>
|> No folks,  I did not pay Len to ask that! :-).  But since he did I feel a
|> necessity to respond to that publicly.  I am a champion of channeling and
|> consider Hatton to be the ahole of the universe, not in the least


I too consider Hatton to be an ahole, although I wouldn't go as far as to
call him the ahole of the Universe. Maybe just the ahole of the Galaxy.



Sorry, I just couldn't resist this one.

[...]


|> Pleiadian Group
|> 1030 Corvette Dr.
|> San Jose, Ca. 95129

--
***********************************************************************
| Leonard E. Spani      |       //!?\\         | (disclaimer-p)       |
| [e-mail]  |       \\?!//         | t                    |
*****************-<( "everybody thinks I'm paranoid" )>-***************
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!europa.asd.contel.com!darwin.sura.net!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!palmj
From: [e-mail] (Jyri L. Palm)
Subject: Re: Ley Lines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Nntp-Posting-Host: vccsouth26.its.rpi.edu
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1992 19:54:17 GMT
Lines: 13

[e-mail] (Rogue Agent) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>>I don't have time to say anything. I'll to catch you later.
>>John Winston.

>I don't have anything to say either.  Thought you'd like to know.  Or not.

>    RA

Nothing to be said over here also....nor time to say it...

JP
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From: [e-mail] (Jyri L. Palm)
Subject: Re: Hatton: CIA or ET
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Nntp-Posting-Host: vccsouth26.its.rpi.edu
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1992 19:59:29 GMT
Lines: 9

[e-mail] (Rogue Agent) writes:

>These sound way way cool - beamships, laserguns, people from the DAL Universe
                                                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^

Is this where that Apple System-7 "DAL" Extension came from?  I always thought
there was something "alien" about it...

JP
Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7963 alt.conspiracy:17466 alt.activism:30663 sci.skeptic:28486 misc.headlines:23244 alt.politics.bush:1444
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!dtix!darwin.sura.net!wupost!emory!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary
From: [e-mail] (Gary Coffman)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,alt.activism,sci.skeptic,misc.headlines,alt.politics.bush
Subject: Re: UFO "October Surprise" and USA TAKEOVER?!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Aug 92 17:07:33 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Gary Coffman)
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group
Lines: 44

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Alex Bunker) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Trevor Bauknight) writes:
>>[e-mail] (Hanan Polanski) writes:
>>
>>>(don't you think keeping semi-automatic weapons in the home is over-kill?I-)
>>
>>No...why?  I, for one, don't want a populace incapable of armed insurrection
>>against our government, however benign or tyranical it is.  Semiautomatics,
>>automatics, cannons, bazookas, grenades, whatever...
>>
>>Why would you have a problem with law-abiding citizens owning semiautomatic
>>weapons?  What harm could it possibly do?
>>
>
>This is where I have to cut in look at the statistics in the real
>world. The USA has a murder rate 10X higher than any of the
>other democracies. IS IT really worth this "right to bear
>arms" crap? how are Germans,french,Canadians,UKers more
>opressed than Americans? They have low crime rates and
>stringent firearm laws. In what way are they any worse off
>because of this? I can think of a lot of ways they are
>BETTER off...

The US does have a murder rate higher than Western Europe, including
Switzerland where each household is *required* to have an automatic
weapon and ammunition available for possible national defense. The
US has a murder rate higher than Israel where citizens carry automatic
weapons in their cars and on their persons. 20% of US murders are
committed with guns. Subtract out five US cities, those with the most
firearms restrictions, and *total* murder rates for the remainder of
the country are lower than Western Europe. 25 States allow open carry
of firearms on the person, and those 25 states have the lowest crime
rates in the US. Some Americans are very violent people regardless of
what weapons they have, and over 1.5 million of those people's crimes
are thwarted each year by citizens with firearms.

The police can't protect you. In fact they are not even legally required
to *try* to protect you. Their job is to come in and clean up *after*
the fact. It's each citizen's legal and moral duty to protect themselves
from predators whether those predators wear a mask or a badge.

Gary

(Yes, I am the NRA. As if you couldn't guess.)
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From: [e-mail] (Gary Coffman)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,alt.activism,misc.headlines,alt.politics.bush
Subject: Re: UFO "October Surprise" and USA TAKEOVER?!
Keywords: No brain, no pain.
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Aug 92 18:07:57 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Gary Coffman)
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group
Lines: 35

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Crunchy Frog) writes:
>
>HEY FUCKHEAD!!!! (Yeah, you).
>
>Take a look at the list of newsgroups at the top of this posting.  Do
>you see talk.politics.guns up there?  No.  Do you see any
>newsgroup that relates to guns up there?  No.  Does this thread
>have *anything* to do with the title or newsgroups?  No.
>
>Can I make a suggestion?  Take this thread out of here.

To quote amorgan, a great American;

"HEY FUCKHEAD!!!! (Yeah, you)."

The Greys are going to get us if we aren't armed, thus alt.alien.visitors.

The anti-gunners are conspiring to overthrow the US Constitution, thus
alt.conspiracy.

We pro-gunners are real activists, thus alt.activism.

Sci.skeptic doesn't belong, they don't believe in anything so I've deleted
them.

Misc.headlines needs a break from Jack_S and his merry band of Israel
apologists, so we'll stay here.

The Presidental election is crucial to maintaining our rights, so
alt.politics.bush stays.

The only group that needn't be bothered is talk.politics.guns, they've
heard it all before. So I deleted them.

Let the games begin!
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From: [e-mail] (Gary Coffman)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,alt.activism,misc.headlines,alt.politics.bush
Subject: Re: guns and criminals
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Aug 92 18:39:28 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Gary Coffman)
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group
Lines: 74

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Loren I. Petrich) writes:
>
>    My preference is for defense rather than offense. If one is
>seriously concerned about being shot, then one should wear a helmet
>and a bulletproof vest (or a flak jacket). For a gun, the advantage
>goes to whoever can use one first, and with a small gun, it is easy to
>pull one out and point it in a snap. Furthermore, a bulletproof vest
>is intended to stop _all_ bullets, including Friendly Fire.

Unfortunately, any bullet "proof" vest that you can actually wear
in daily life *won't* stop most bullets. Military flak vests are
designed to stop relatively slow and big pieces of shrapnel, they
don't do a great job on bullets either. Besides, you're just asking
to get shot in the face.

A small concealed gun *is* easier to pull and fire quickly than a
big awkward gun. It's also more likely to be on your person when
you need it than a rifle or big bulky pistol. It is a better *defensive*
weapon than *offensive* weapon. That's why the military issues them
as *last ditch* weapons for otherwise better armed troops.

>    As to gun restriction legislation, I think we should have a
>system of gun permits for buying guns -- and ammunition also. One
>shouldn't forget that a gun is useless without ammo. How is it nobody
>considers needing a license just to drive a car an unforgivable threat
>to freedom? The gun permit system should be straightforward, and
>should allow anyone without any history of violent behavior to get a
>gun.

You don't need a license to buy gasoline, a very deadly weapon as the
families of the 54 killed in the NYC club arson can attest. Federal
law *already* requires that you swear that you don't have a criminal
record or have a history of mental illness before you can purchase
a gun. The problem is that the government *refuses* to set up a system
to *verify* the truthfulness of your statement. The NRA has backed
the instant background check with privacy restrictions against abuse
for a long time, but the anti-gunners want waiting periods and lists.
The NRA doesn't think either is useful or desirable. When faced with
an iminent threat, a waiting period could get you killed. Lists are
tools of confiscation. When the Nazi war machine roled into a country,
they seized the lists of people with firearms and confiscated them.
While the Nazis are (mostly) gone, their mentality lives on, even in
some of our politicians.

>    If any guns are worth banning or severely restricting, it is
>the smaller guns. Rifles and any bigger guns are much more difficult
>to hide, and are just as useful for (say) defending one's home. I
>think that the National Rifle Association should stick to pushing
>rifles :-).

Sorry, most assualts do *not* occur in the home. Lugging around a
large rifle may serve as a deterrent, but it's just as likely to
get you shot *first* before you're robbed. A rifle is slow and
awkward to be brought to bear on an assailent. If you are far
enough away to use a rifle, you probably aren't justified in
shooting. Being on the defensive means you have to wait for
a palpable threat before you can *react*. Rapid reaction is a
must if you wish to survive. The handgun is the best *reactive*
weapon available.

Rifles are wonderful *offensive* weapons, that's why the military
issues them to troops.

>    And one should learn ways of self-defense using one's own
>body, so one can deal with assailants not equipped with guns.

Sure. But you never know in advance what's going to go bang in your
face. A knife is a very deadly weapon in skilled hands, even a tire
iron can kill you despite all your karate lessons. Better to assume
*any* attacker is armed and intending you deadly harm. Your intent
must be to *stop* the attacker cold, nothing portable is better for
that task than a handgun skillfully used.

Gary
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Joel Wedberg)
Subject: Re: Execute the Messenger (was: Is Bigfoot a Visitor?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: moho.sdsu.edu
Organization: San Diego State University, College of Sciences
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1992 21:17:12 GMT
Lines: 36





: Joel,Greg,Robert & the rest of you closeminded assuming pinheads,
                                                 ^^^^^^^^
     There turns out to be a difference between assuming and evaluating
objectively. There turns out to be a BIG difference between a
person who accepts on faith until an assertion is proven wrong and a
critical thinker.

: I can truly see why more people will not come forward to tell about their
: experiences. Most  will probably take them to the grave rather than be
: subjected to character asassination & ridicule.We will never get anywhere
: in trying to figure out some of the most confounding myteries on this
: globe. With people such as yourselves, ready to pounce on anyone that has
: an experience that you can't
: understand.

     So, anyway, there I was, and it was...an ALIEN. I pinched myself,
I jumped around, I sang the national anthem, fasted, meditated, prayed,
juggled, had intercourse, flew in a blimp - but IT WAS STILL THERE!
OMIGOD - a real alien!
     Now, there's a mystery. And don't you dare ridicule it.
Because they're really around, and...ssshhhhh....draw closer...
(whisper) They tell me to do things...

: As far as it being a b.s. story..........Read between the lines -FOAD-

     Now that really hurts.
:
: Rod
:

     Joeloid

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (My name is...)
Subject: Re: Is this still alt.alien.visitors?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News Daemon)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1992 21:24:43 GMT
Lines: 16


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Gregg Brown) writes...
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Joe Citro III) writes:
>Can any one give me more information on the possibility that the "UFO
>Abductions" that we are all so fond of tallking about are the possible
>surfacing of ancient ancestral memories? Doe anyone know anything about
>ancient ancestral memories and their surfacing in later generations?
>
>See! No guns.
>
>Gregg.

I think it's true ... and I'd like to hear more about ancient ancestral
memories and their surfacing in later generations too.

mary
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Newsgroups: alt.activism,alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.bush,misc.headlines,sci.skeptic
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!think.com!sdd.hp.com!usc!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!ucselx!crash!benno
From: [e-mail] (Benno Eichmann)
Subject: Re: UFO "October Surprise" and USA TAKEOVER?!
Date: 5 Aug 92 20:06:44 GMT
Message-ID: <benno.713045204@crash>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 17


In regards to all this, has anyone heard about the LEIU(Law Enforcement
Investigative Unit) with considerable power in regards to insurections
on local USA soil?  Are they training special members in secrecy just
to the west of New York?  Is the disarming of the public a desirable
outcome for such authorities which may act under FEMA style constitution
suspension?

Why are hidden departments putting such large funds into these issues
considerations with little or no constitutional public reveiw?  Do the
Executive Orders really serve the public and constitution well?

Questions, questions?




Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!pipex!demon!cix.compulink.co.uk!asm332
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
From: [e-mail] (Sean Eaton)
Subject: Re: Is this still alt.alien.visitors?
Cc: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1992 22:27:12 +0000
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 20

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:

>Geez, you finally get Winston replying in a halfy-decent format, and

Not for long - the hiatus is only temporary.  Check this JW clasic out
and be prepared for further bombardment...


Quote article <[e-mail]> from [e-mail]:

>Dear Lovers of Star TreK: I've been off the net since July 31 so if
>you've sent me E-mail you might try me again. It seems they didn't get
>my check through the mail.

Brace yourself for when the cheque clears :-)

-Sean.

[e-mail] | [e-mail]
       -Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatus nunc-
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!pipex!demon!cix.compulink.co.uk!asm332
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
From: [e-mail] (Sean Eaton)
Subject: New Zealand sighting.
Cc: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1992 22:27:14 +0000
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Lines: 12

Does anyone have information on the UFO sighting by a
TV film crew flying over New Zealand around 1978 ?
I was young at the time and I can't remember much about it
except that they were sent to investigate unidentified
lights that had been appearing for a couple of weeks.
They had just set their equipment up, when one of these
lights appeared !

-Sean.

[e-mail] | [e-mail]
"Zeus, is there no end to your vengence ?" - Ulysses 31
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Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!noc.near.net!merrimack.edu!caina
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Get Off John's Back Please!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 5 Aug 92 16:17:14 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: Merrimack College, No. Andover, MA, USA
Lines: 17

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:

>  Give me 12 people like
> R2D2 and we can change the world.
>

   I'm sorry, R2D2 is unavailable for any activities.  Since his conversion to
the Dark Side, Lord Vader has had him on a very tight and rigorous schedule.
Tommorrow, the little guy will be performing with New Kids on the Block.
Friday, he'll be on Geraldo in a segment entitled "Droids who cross dress
as Toyotas".  Of course all next week he'll be torturing the remaining members
of the alliance.
   If you wish to attempt to contact him, please see his agent, Major Snivel,
and he will arrange an appointment for you.  But in most cases, your requests
will be ignored and your planet conquered.  But that's a different story.


Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7972 alt.paranormal:5595
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!olivea!sun-barr!male.EBay.Sun.COM!jethro.Corp.Sun.COM!starflight!jdr
From: [e-mail] (Jon Roland)
Newsgroups: ba.seminars,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Viewing High Strangeness Material
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Aug 92 00:21:24 GMT
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Distribution: usa
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Lines: 18
NNTP-Posting-Host: starflight.corp.sun.com

The following notice is being posted for a friend. Please reply to her and
not to the poster.

---

A private remote-viewing group of scientists and engineers is now accepting
new members. If you are intellectually curious you will enjoy this unusual
form of recreation. The material we will view includes well-substantiated
incidents of anomalous aerial phenomena. No previous remote-viewing
experience is necessary. For information please call Shelley Thomson,
510/644-2874 (Berkeley, California).

---

[e-mail], [e-mail]
Jon Roland
Starflight Corporation, 1755 E Bayshore Rd #9A,
Redwood City, CA 94063-4142, 415/361-8141
Xref: news.uiowa.edu talk.religion.newage:11102 alt.alien.visitors:7973 sci.skeptic:28518
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Ride on John's Back, Please! (Was: Re: Get Off John's Back
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed,  5 Aug 92 18:38:06 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 11

Dear Humans: There has been a slight change in the names of the runner of the
third weekly Astral Convoy. The person whoes first name starts with the
letter D (D.) was then called R2D2 now wants to be called Bridgit because
of her study of King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table. So Bridgit
it will be.  Oh yes, last week she informs me that she did see and entity
in her room and it wasn't the bogey man. Don't laugh I just report the
facts as they come in. The person we have called E. is actually in Hawii.
We'll call him E. the Adept because he is adept in ESP. J. is still
with us but the lady in England hasn't made up her mind yet. Shannon is
out somewhere trying to get a picture of his or herself for me. This
sounds a lot like the comic routine called Who's on First. John Winston
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ley Lines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed,  5 Aug 92 18:56:36 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 11

Dear Ley People: Here's some more information from Shaari about Ley Lines
and the Nasca Lines.----So what is happening is that grids with their
{light} were brought from another dimension, from another universe, through
a black hole, was was waiting in position around the earth's orbit, and
that the Nasca Lines were carved into {earth's surface} as a registration
marker to the exact specifications when these line grids were brought
into configuration and alignment. {A} 144 different trianglar grids could
be, their energy could be anchored into the earth, could be calibrated into
the earth, so they would maintain that level of balance and integrity,
from another dimension here on this dimension, as some of you know,
{if} your working with higher levels of energy, sometimes it's----JW.
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Ley Lines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed,  5 Aug 92 19:09:17 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 10

---very difficult for you to keep and apply that resonance of energy
in the earth plane. So what they needed to do, was create a system of
registration which are the Nasca Lines, and with anchoring this energy
from another dimension so that they could build these triangular
grids, and so that then they could build 144 of them, which then were
moved over in Peru to Machu Picchu and then were assembled close to
Machu Picchu at a place called {S.P. Ilente Tiambo} and they were
assembled there, moved over to Machu Picchu and at Machu Picchu that energy
was {moved on to them} and then the grids multiplied 144 X144 X144 until
they surrounded the entire planet some 25,000 years ago. End Part 6. JW.
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From: [e-mail] (Steve MacDonald)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Moon Activities?y
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Aug 92 02:11:15 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world
Lines: 9

Just to let people know there was an incident in the 11th century where several
monks in England saw a large explosion on the moon. It scared the crap out of
them and they thought the world was going to end. It could be very possible
that they witnessed a large alien ship crashing on the moon or more likely just
regular alien lunar activity.

        no guns
                Steve Macdonald

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Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!n8emr!bluemoon!garys
From: [e-mail] (Gary Stollman)
Subject: Re: UFO "October Surprise" and USA TAKEOVER?!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (BBS Login)
Organization: Blue Moon BBS ((614) 868-998[024])
References: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 92 07:56:06 EDT
Lines: 11

I personally don't believe in guns...I say this even though I used a toy
gun to commit a "crime"...However, when the government actually tries to
get away with stuff like this, and in my own personal case actually does
get away with it, I think about a statement a friend of mine made some
years ago...He said, "Guns made America free!"...You know something...He
was right...
        Gary Stollman

 This is from
     [e-mail]
who doesn't have his (or her) own obnoxious signature yet
From: [e-mail] (Jeff Mortensen)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1992 07:07:51 GMT
Subject: Re: UFO "October Surprise" and USA TAKEOVER?!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!usc!sdd.hp.com!hpscdc!hplextra!hpfcso!mort
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
References: <[e-mail]>
Lines: 19

In alt.alien.visitors, [e-mail] (Duane P Mantick) writes:

>
> [gobbledeegook deleted]
  [and other humous crap]

  I sure hope this happens, it would make life much more exciting.  Sorta
  like living in a sf book......


.............................................................................
Jeffrey Mortensen        ////////////  ////////  ////////  ////////  ///  ///
Hewlett-Packard Co       ||/  ||/  ||/ |/     |/ ||/   ||/    ||/    ||/--||/
Fort Collins, CO         ||/  ||/  ||/ |/     |/ ||////||/    ||/     \\/-//
[e-mail]    ||/       ||/ |/     |/ ||/   \\/    ||/       |||/
                         ||/       ||/ |//////|/ ||/    \\/   ||/       |||/
IF YOUR TO BUSY TO LAUGH,/^^^^^^^^/^^^^^^^^/^^^^^^^^/^^^^^^^^/^^^^^^^^^/^^^^
THEN YOUR TO BUSY!!!!!!!/^^^^^^^^/^^^^^^^^/^^^^^^^^/^^^^^^^^/^^^^^^^^^/^^^^^
...........................................................................
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!nntp1.radiomail.net!portal!cup.portal.com!Jeffrey_-_Papineau
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: THE NATURE OF REALITY(was Is Bigfoot a Visitor?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu,  6 Aug 92 00:48:24 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
Lines: 179

I feel that I finally have to make a public comment here. You know, this
group could use a heavy dose of humility, empathy, and intelligence!

How can people comment on subjects they obviously know nothing about? If
you have seen a UFO, then you have made the prerequisit, or if you have
read a few books. But you still don't know --it. You have to do your home-
work girls and boys.
Rod wanted to relate his experience, and that is what this news group is for,
to share information. But after his initial post, the rest of what I have
to wade through is unadulterated nonsense!
I want to learn something, not listen to others moronic interpretations of hi
experience, since they were not there. All that really matters is that Rod
had an experience that he wishes to share with us in a sincere manner. I have
seen nothing here to disuade me that he is telling the truth as he believes
it.
What is appropriete at that point is to ask him questions: Could it be that
you were still dreaming? That is a good question, but please don't force
that idea upon him, me, or the rest of the readers. We have to create
a forum in which people will in fact feel comfortable to share there
experiences. I personally am not interested in ANYTHING a self-proclaimed
SHLEPTIC has to say! He has his mind made up before you even tell him
one word of your experience. That is not a posture of openness and fairness
by any measure. Been reading a bit too much of Mr. Klass I would imagine.
CIA trash is all that man publishes, direct from Langley.
I simpley wish we could refrain from ridicule of those brave enough to bare
their experiences with those who are really interested in this subject. I
mean, that is why we take the time to associate here, is it not? Ridicule
is the protective barrier which the timid or the ignorant erect between
themselves and any possibility which frightens or disturbs them. All great
men have been scorned and ridiculed by some. But we can be above that here,
surely.
It is easier to ridicule than to investigate, but it is not as profitable.

Now, on to the nature of reality. Make no mistake, the biggest secret in this
world is THE NATURE OF REALITY. Governments will kill to keep the masses in
a mind-set that promotes their remaining in power. We are bombarded daily by
advertisers that would have us the nature of reality is "Why ask why? Bud Dry
!" This is the nature of most peoples reality at this time. What they see on
the TV, what is available in the newspapers, and what they are taught in
school. Well it's time someone told most of you that everything you learned
in school is wrong. Think about it; we were taught Columbus was a national
hero. We were taught that we could trust our government, and we at one
time were taught that the electron was pretty much the extent of sub-atomic
structure. Well, none of it is true. Science is usually wrong, and redefines
itself every 1000, 100, or 50 years or so. In 1945, those in the rocket
science field were considered daft for thier beliefs that we could put a man
in orbit. Put a man on the moon? Call the white-coats and get the straight-
jacket! Well, we see who was right and who was wrong. Those of the scientific
establishment who espouse the generally held convensional wisdom are doomed t
o be proven wrong most of the time as history will bear out, time and time
again..
Copernicus, Galileo, even Newton were up against the great resistance of medi
ocre minds. They were heritics, and laughed at, but in the end, thier seeming
ly wild ideas held water, until the next generation came along to prove them
incorrect on at least some counts. So our reality is ever changing on the
scientific front, and is NEVER really correct, and never will be until we
come to understand the balance of wisdom and universal spirituality.
If you have an open mind, and you really look into UFO's, it is amazing
were it will lead you. Astronomy, Political Science, Aironautics, Physics,
Spirituality, Theology, the list is so long that NO ONE PERSON CAN OR
WILL EVER understand all that is implicated to study its full ramifications.
I would suggest that we all hold are opinions in check for a while as we
soak up some of the background that is really needed to investigate this
subject, so hit the books!

Matrix II - has anyone seen this one? It's pretty recent, and looks to be
an underground work, since it has to ISBN # and is not even really bound in
the usual manner of a book. But it really blows the lid off of this subject.
It gives accounts from at least 5 different sources regarding Dulce! And it
lists a location for the underground base that ain't were people have been
looking for it! It has interviews with Lear and Lazar. Lear seems convinced
that AIDS is man-made, and that the government intends to destroy 75% of
worlds population with it. It makes a great deal of sense, and he is certain
ly not the first to speculate that as the world's population doubles in the
next decade, computer simulations done by our government would indicate the
planet could never support the numbers the future holds. There has to be a
way to control the population of the planet, or everybody dies. Along comes
bio-engineering. I went to see Michael Lindemann speak recently, and you
really owe it to yourself to read his stuff if you want to learn just what
may be going on. He relates the meeting in 1969 in Chyanne Mt., CO. where
the military and the Wise Men (Jason Soc.) met and discussed a world that
had a reordering of priorities. If there was no cold war, we could drop
our defence posture and industries, and base a world economy on alternative,
safe energy sources and environmental conservation, and feeding of the world
masses, as well as birth control and disease erradication. Heaven on Earth.
And they decided it wouldn't work. Because it would mean a future that was
impossible to predict or control. Much as Copernicus caused the Roman Calolic
Church to lose its control of the Western world by the ushering in of Science
and the Industrial Age, these "
New Age" Ideas would cause the military control structures to become quite
secondary, if not obsolete altogether. Of course, those in power to not tend
to relinquish it without attempting to keep it in some way first.

So the first biggest secret held by the "Olympians" as M. Lindemann calls
them, is that there is a tremendous effort being taken to control our
reality. What we perceve to be real, what we imagine to be the outer
limits of possiblity, and what we imagine to be utter impossiblity, are
tightly controlled by the media, our schools (that are funded by the Feds),
and our pillars of conventional wisdom, however well intentioned.
The second greatest secret is that we can control our reality. An in depth
study of spiritualiy, the perineal philosophy, ALL religeons and anceint
teachings tells one that what we imagine we can cause to become our relaity.
Jesus wanted to teach us this very point. That we are immortal. that we
can transend the bounds of our empirical bondage if only we believe that we
can. the Hindu Yogis, Buddha, the Zen masters, and Mohammed, they all
knew this well. And, the most advanced alien races would teach us this as
well, if only we wanted to listen. We don't need science or technology,
because utimately, we can, by power of mind, specifically will, develope
the capability to manifest anything we desire, just as Jesus could pull
bread from the ether. REad Life and Teachings of the Masters of the Far
East series if you have a hard time with this one, but leave your opinions
in your ear. It simply does not matter what you think, it won't change the
truth of what I am saying.
The 3rd most tightly held secret is the existance of extra-terrestrial vis-
itation. This is where things become much more fuzzy for me, and where I
feel we need to spend a great deal of time researching. Because the
masters have already done most of the spiritual work for us. WE just have
to tune into them, and we have that. And we can know that we create our own
reality, so we just tell Madison Ave. and the Feds to get hosed, and let us
form our own opinions and destiny's, so that's pretty easy too.
But what about the coming earth changes? What of SDI and what is it's true
intended purpose? What about AIDS and the secret governments true intentions
for the future of mankind? What about the greys and Dr. John Mack of Harvard
that says that as many as 3 million Americans may have been abducted, but
have had their memories scrubbed and simply don't remember the experience?
What about how the CIA recruted the Gestappo Intelligence force to use as
spys for the coming cold-war era, and there power circles in modern-day
US? What about CIA black projects funded by Cocain running, heroin running,
BCCI money laundering, arms sales, and the bilking of the S&L's, not to
mention the siphoning of funds from cover programs like SETI and the B2
/Steath projects?
We can come to understand reality only when we understand that these and
questions are the questions that must be asked, and the answers will not
be the most easily found, convenient, digestible fodder we find laying
about! UFO's ain't ball lighting, they are not Venus, and they sure
as hell aint' in the imaginations of millions of people who have witnessed
them world-wide.
And what about the contactees? They are our greatest treasure in this
struggle for knowledge. they would be silenced by our governments. But
we can nurture their awareness among us, and foster a supportive atmosphere
that allows their information to come out so that we can finally know the
truth. If what they tell us is backed up by physical sightings, physical
evedence, and what telepathic messages are recieved by dozens of psychics
in this country, then we had better take notice and realize that there is
very good reason to give high probabilty to some of their information. There
simply are too many sources of this information to blow it off. but most of
us never get that far, because it takes a lot of work and nobody is goint
to do it for you. the media, controlled by intelligence plants at high
possitions, ain't going to do it for you. The university, with their funds
from Federal, State, and Alumnis institutuions won't do it for you. And your
mama won't do it for you, unless I miss my guess, the only person that can
lift you out of ignorance is yourself. So hit the books, and quit the
mindless crap! I'm tired of it!

Available from East-West books of Menlo Park, CA:

Matrix II - Val Valerian
The Fellowship - Brad Stieger
UFO's; Six Viewpoints - Michael Lindemann
The Ra Materials
Aliens Among Us
ExtraTerrestrials Among Us
Cosmic Top Secret - W. Hamilton
Behold a Pale Horse - W. Cooper
Pleadies series - Stevens
The Promise - Dr. Fred Bell
Secret Life - Jacobs
the monuments of Mars - Hoagland
UFO crash at Roswell - Randle
UFO crash at Aztec - stevens
UFO from Venus - Stevens
And many others too numerous to mention.

M. Lindemanns 2020 Group has a new book that everyone should read:
UFO's and the New World Order - 2020 Group, 3463 State Street., Ste.264,
Santa Barbara, CA 93105

Remember, the average 99% of Americans read less than 1 book per year.
The government is counting on that.
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!comp.vuw.ac.nz!waikato.ac.nz!aukuni.ac.nz!kcbbs!kc
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Alien with a Gun
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
From: [e-mail] (Robert Sutton)
Date: 6 Aug 92 09:44:34 GMT
Organization: Kappa Crucis Unix BBS, Auckland, New Zealand
Lines: 19

Has anyone spotted one?.
An alien with a gun that is.
Even an alien after a gun.
What about an alien named gun?
Or if nothing else an alien with a ray-gun

If not then maybe it's because thier tired of not reading about themselves
but instead seeing all this debate on primitive Earth weapons by primitive
Earth animals.

If the alien isnt alt by the gun visiting or visited then they maybe
coming to get you......................

************************
ARE ETOI SPACESHIPS SHY
OR ARE THEY JUST WAITING
TO SEAL THE ROYALTY DEAL?
*************************

Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!Jeffrey_-_Papineau
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: UFO books
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu,  6 Aug 92 01:27:09 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 21

Stranger At The Command: page
Pentagon by Frank Stranges. other comments on this subject.
Jeff-

I can also recommend this book. I have not read it thru yet, but there that's
is a used copy with my name on it at East-West Books in Menlo Park that
I can't wait to pickup.
As for the Archer, it's back to the shooting range for this bent arrow. For
him I would recommend the Law of ONE, the Ra Material. In it, and many
other countless books (1000's) including Jacques Vallee, they happen to
mention a concept of life in other forms, and other densities of dimension;
while most people tend to think of life in 3 dimensional terms.
But who are we to define the limits of a limitless universe?
It seems to me the Arser rarely adds much new information to this news
group and likes to disagree with anyone that does not fit into his institu
tionally derived limits of reality. See also the thread on Bigfoot for my

other comments on this subject.
Jeff-

that's Mr. Papineau to you Arser.
Path: news.uiowa.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!Jeffrey_-_Papineau
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Hatton: CIA or ET?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu,  6 Aug 92 01:56:02 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
Lines: 15

Thankyou to Mr. Sutton for a very inlightening and educational answer to this
original poster's question. I must say that it was the "
next message" for me and I have been waiting for that information for a
long time. It's always very difficult to know how to adapt/react to messages
of the final days, and your insight was invaluable. We must not contiually
separate our life-force from our being by fear of death and false survivalist
worries. I know that for me it is very easy to start stock-piling and buying
guns, etc. but it really won't make a lot of difference in the end, and can
really separate me from my innerself to center on these issues.

As for the rest of the replys to this thread; snot nosed and moronic. I reall
y don't appreciate having to wade thru such crap to get to the sincere posts.
Why don't you "kids" go play on the freeway?
Jeff-
That's Sir to you; rouge.
Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7983 alt.paranormal:5601
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From: [e-mail] (Thad P Floryan)
Newsgroups: ba.seminars,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: Viewing High Strangeness Material
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu,  6 Aug 92 01:43:39 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: usa
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 13

In article <[e-mail]>
[e-mail] (Jon Roland) writes:

|  [...]
|  A private remote-viewing group of scientists and engineers is now accepting
|  new members. If you are intellectually curious you will enjoy this unusual
|  form of recreation. The material we will view includes well-substantiated
|  [...]

What is "remote-viewing"?


Thad Floryan [ [e-mail] ]
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Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!Jeffrey_-_Papineau
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Hatton: CIA or ET
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu,  6 Aug 92 02:06:31 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 22

I forgot to mention that much of what Hatonn sez in the UFO-Gate book is
true, but it's lifted straight out of Coopers book, etc. Cooper even threaten
ed to sue Green over it; reported in UFO magazine.
the part where he is constantly referring to those that will "eat crow, or
the raven" are crack-ups. Anyone that understands channeling would know that
this is not how christ-plane beings communicate. On the other hand, Hatonn
is actually available to channel, and is in the RA Material; the Law of ONE,
and has an entirely different personality.
As to motivations of Mr. Green, he is written up in this months UFO and there
will be a conituing saga in that rag about his exploits. But I still enjoyed
much of the book. The Kennedy assasination plot that sez he was killed becaus
e he wanted to inform the public of alien/government agreements/bases, and
caputered ships is entirely believable. Since the next best motivation is
that the industrialists building helicopters for Vietnom wanted him killed
is just to vanilla in my mind. Much more likely he was going to inform the
public of various tightly held CIA secrets, disband the agency, and create
a true free republic and a dynasty of Kennedy leaders would have followed,
something the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the agency, and the multinationals
with multibillion dollar underground base contracts didn't want to see
happen.
You think I'm nuts? READ MATRIX!
Jeff-
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!uknet!warwick!mrccrc!mrccrc!sgamble
From: [e-mail] (Steve Gamble x3293)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Alien descriptions, why the greys??
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Aug 92 08:49:19 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail] (Steve Gamble x3293)
Organization: MRC Human Genome Mapping Project Resource Centre, Harrow, UK
Lines: 59
Nntp-Posting-Host: germanium

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (M Holmes) writes:
> [e-mail] (Joseph Good) writes:
>
> >One theory that has been going around for quite a while is our facination with
> >'grey' type aliens is due to the movie "Close Encounters".  I haven't paid much
> >attention to this at all, and I'm sure the flames will be thrown my way in just
> >a few minutes, so.. flame on.
>
> >With the publicity the movie got, it wouldn't be that far fetched to try and
> >link the vast amount of 'grey' abduction and sightings to the movie.  I'm sure
> >that it has been said the movie was made to look like 'greys', and in that
> >case.. cool.
>
> Well, some of us will be old enough to remember that the original
> version of Close Encounters didn't show the aliens/inside of the
> spacecraft. (Well, ok, you could see them through the light/mist, but
> there were no details.) So the question is: were there reports of Greys
> between the release of the first version and the extended edition?
>
> FoFP

[some stuff deleted]

The 3 foot 6 guys with big eyes, no hair and an attitude problem (commonly
called the Greys) have been about in the UFO Literature since well before
Close Encounters.

If you consider the Betty and Barney Hill case (September 1961) and held by
many to be the start of the Abduction phenomenon, the creatures described
are somewhat similar. The drawings done as I recall were not very good.

Going back further in history, we have the Kelly Hopkinsville (?Kentucky) of
(?)1949. A group of farmers described a gun battle with several small
creatures. These creatures were similar to the Greys but had large ears.
Very good drawings (i.e. artistically very acceptable, no comment on accuracy)
were produced which have been widely used in both the UFO and other press.

It should be stressed that many different types of 'aliens' are reported by
contactees and abductees. MUFON has a list where they identify at least
for different types of 'alien'. (I think this was posted not so long ago by
Don Allen). Whilst it may appear that most if not all abduction reports
involve the Greys, I believe this not to be a true reflection of reports.
I believe that it reflects more the success of  Budd Hopkins, David Jacobs
and Whitley Strieber in publisizing their particular work.

John Spencer in the book perspectives (MacDonald/Futura, London, 1990) spent
a great deal of time looking at what he believes to be the origins of
abductions. He spends some time looking at different types of reported
'aliens'.  It appears that the majority of witnesses investigated by
Budd see the abduction as a negative thing in their lives, whilst
many of Leo Sprinkle's witnesses seem to treat it as a positive experience.


Steve.
--
(Disclaimer: These are not my employer's opinions, they may not even be mine!)
Steve Gamble, Computing Services, Clinical Research Centre and Human Genome
Mapping Project Resource Centre, Watford Road, Harrow, Middlesex, HA1 3UJ, UK.
Phone: [phone]  JANET: [e-mail] INTERNET: [e-mail]
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!Jeffrey_-_Papineau
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Gulf Breeze Six In The News Again
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu,  6 Aug 92 03:53:00 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 79

A lot of you kids have not been around long enough to be toilet trained
for more than a few years, so I'll give you a break while dad puts you
through school...
But you really need to consider just how many sources there are for "end-
times" information and how close it just might be to occuring.
Sources include left wing political types given to conspiracy theories who
have a need to explain to themselves how everything got so f--ked in such
a short decade as the 80's. We had the 60's, and even though JFK/RFK/MLK
assasinations really hurt them, things seemed better than when the republican
party took control for the last 20 years and decimated the economy, public
appathy to government went sky high, and the civil rights movement was crush
ed. so they started to look into it, and they found a lot of s--t!
Heroin smuggling from the Golden Triangle since the Vietnom years from the
Golden Tringle, organized by the CIA, and routed thru Corsica with CIA/Mafia
ties.
Cocain/Arms/Laundering/BCCI - Operation Watchtower in which daily flights of
coke went one way, arm for the Contras went the other way, and Panama as
the way station before offshore rigs like Zappata Oil saw to it the drugs
came into the US.
Bush family investments in Pannama include many luxery hotels that US forces
were sent in to liberate when Noriega became uncontrollable.

We are talking about a steady importation of drugs into this country for the
last 30 years, headed by the same people that have brought to you the drug
war, "just say no" and the siezing of personal property without charging of a
crime. Do you begin to see a pattern here at all? Are you blind?

Combine this information with what Cooper, Lazar, Hamilton, Lindemann and
others are telling us about MANY different people that have witnessed aliens
working side-by-side with scientists and military personel in underground
facilities. Oh, you don't think such facilities exist? READ US Nes and World
report about just 50 of these installations (out of 100's). You think Lazar
is a hoaxter or government spook? Read what Lindemann has to say about
the Antellope Valley, and the many witnesses around Edwards, China Lake, and
Nellis that swear up and down that they have seen this stuff 30 floors or
more underground. People that are construction workers that have been killed
for seeing to much, or being too inquisitive.
And corporate heads, on their death-beds, telling their children about what
really goes on at Northrup under the earth.

Put that all together with what independent psychics who do not even know of
each other, say they are recieving from the "other side". Oh, you don't
believe in ESP, telekinesis, or clarvoyance? Well, what do you think happens
when you die? the Hindues, the Buddists, and even most Christians know about
that! It's called the astral plane, eternity, and ultimatily, christ concious
ness and reunion with the god-head. Come on you spiritual cretins, people
have understood these things for thousands of years, and because you can
split an atom, you think that there is no creator and you are individual
gods that perish forever when you die?
The Bible, if intelligently interpreted, without the dogma of 1000'
s of years of demogogery thrown in, tells us there will be the final days.
Well, volcanos erupting? Check, we have that. Earthquakes? Check, plenty
of those too.

It takes only a few short steps to get from where I'm at, to where some of
the stories here about Nazi plots and martial law are not unbelievable in
the least. I HOPE THEY DO NOT COME TO PASS, but it could happen. Take you
heads out of the anal orifice. Our rights are being infringed upon in
heretofor incomprehensable ways. The president is openly synical towards
the congress and only deals with them if he has to. SDI is shaping up to
the Space Domination Initiative, with the US controlling who can have
access to space and who may not, including many things congress refused
to fund! but they will have ASAT, ground strike capabilities, and more.
And guess what, the bank bail-out is coming! None of the canadates will
talk about it, but we have 100
's of failed banks, and we have another bail-out coming. A Wall-street
anylist on PBS sez it's for sure. and he thinks we should just declare
backruptcy as a nation right now, because it's going to happen either
way, and we might as well get it over with! The sooner we start fresh,
the less decay we will have to endure in the interum.

So folks, all is not rosy in the world. You could be pennyless with the
flip of a switch. Varouse scenarios say that the US could reissued the
courancy at .10 on the dollar, and that prices would stay prety flat;
then where would you be? No new car this year! Get mobile. Be ready
to leave large cities. Get a plan together. You may not use it, but
it couldn't hurt, and it just might help you through some major crisis
to come.
Jeff-
Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:7987 alt.conspiracy:17514 alt.activism:30713 sci.skeptic:28531 misc.headlines:23293
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Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!ftpbox!mothost!lmpsbbs!markr
From: [e-mail] (Mark)
Subject: Re: A racist argument against handgun control legislation.
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: MCIL
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1992 07:55:29 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Net News)
Nntp-Posting-Host: 145.9.14.26
Lines: 34

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Johan Lindqvist) writes:
>[e-mail] (Mark) writes:
>|>
>|> >>First of all, The question was why shouldn't LAW-ABIDING people own weapons.
>|> >>Law-Abiding people don't murder people. (by definition)
>|>
>|>
>|> As a matter of fact, my point is, Why should law-abiding people not be
>|> allowed to own weapons ?
>|>
>|> Mark
>
>Because if (all) people own weapons, they become more widespread, also
>among criminals. And are peple born criminals? No. They become criminals
>by oppurtunity.

Excuse me ?  by opportunity ?  You are seriously mistaken, people become
criminals because of an inability to distinguish between right and wrong.

Every one of us has had an opportunity to become a criminal and the vast
majority of us have not succumbed to this opportunity.

>And one important thing when committing a crime like
>robbery, murder or rape is to be able to threat and harm the victim, which
>is easily done with a gun. Conclution:
>If guns are not so wide spread, criminals would have a hard time getting
>them, and violent crimes would, hopefully, be reduced.

Unfortunately, guns have been around a very long time and last a very long
time that there is quite enough a supply of guns for criminals use.

Mark


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From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Moon Activities?y
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Aug 92 13:06:58 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Reply-To: [e-mail] ()
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 36





>Just to let people know there was an incident in the 11th century where several
>monks in England saw a large explosion on the moon. It scared the crap out of
>them and they thought the world was going to end. It could be very possible
>that they witnessed a large alien ship crashing on the moon or more likely just
>regular alien lunar activity.

>        no guns
>                Steve Macdonald

WRONG!!!!

The monks witnessed a meteor/astroid or small comet impact.  There is a
relatively new loking crater in the area that the monks reported the
impact.  I would have to do some research to get then name of the crater
as I don't remember the name right now.

Steve  Food_for_the_Grays




--
        -----------------------------------------------------------------
        |                                                               |
        |  My atheism, like that of Spinoza, is true piety towards the  |
        |  universe and denies only gods fashioned by men in their own  |
        |  image to be servants of their human interests.               |
        |                                                               |
        |                                  -- George Santayana          |
        |                                                               |
        -----------------------------------------------------------------

Xref: news.uiowa.edu talk.religion.newage:11105 alt.alien.visitors:7989 sci.skeptic:28532
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Ride on John's Back, Please! (Was: Re: Get Off John's Back
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu,  6 Aug 92 06:26:03 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 11

Dear Astral Travel Participants: I just got back from the Astral Convoy
and I truely feel that I am not all here. Sometimes a part of me (some
people call it the Spirit) continues to travel seperate from me but not
to worry it will be back soon. I seem to have all sort of profound
thoughts.  Some of the results from others in the group are in also.
I just got some information through another person from a conventional
scientist by the name of Edward P. Gardner, Ph.D. Mr. Gardner believes that
a person has 7 bodies and they are called the physical, astral,
mental, emational, christed and soul. The first four are earth
plane frequencies and the last three are universal cosmic frequencies.
John Winston.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!gould![e-mail]
From: [e-mail] (B M Cacciola)
Subject: Re: Gulf Breeze Six In The News Again (Thanks, Awfully)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Keywords: Thanks.
Sender: [e-mail] (News Reception)
Nntp-Posting-Host: wizard.encore.com
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Organization: Encore Computer Corp., Fort Lauderdale FL
References: <[e-mail]>  <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1992 12:31:38 GMT
Lines: 19

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:
> A lot of you kids have not been around long enough to be toilet trained
> for more than a few years, so I'll give you a break while dad puts you
> through school...
>..........
> crime. Do you begin to see a pattern here at all? Are you blind?
>..........
> ness and reunion with the god-head. Come on you spiritual cretins, people
>..........
> the least. I HOPE THEY DO NOT COME TO PASS, but it could happen. Take you
> heads out of the anal orifice. Our rights are being infringed upon in

Gee, thanks, Jeff. I'm always more likely to maintain an open mind and
listen to other people's points of view/opinions when there are
insults embedded in their postings. Keep up the good work.

bc
remind me to get a portal account

Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!John_-_Winston
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: A question for John_-_Winston
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu,  6 Aug 92 06:32:36 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 4

I have been informed that Multu posts 20k of information per day on
a net that mainly comes from Europe. He talks about politics and the
person explaining him to me seems to really like him.
John Winston.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Thomas Hill)
Subject: NOTICE: Bigfoot/Sasquatch Sightings Request
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: cwns1.ins.cwru.edu
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 92 14:01:49 GMT
Lines:       24


   Our research group is currently investigating reports and sightings of the
animal known as "Bigfoot" or "Sasquatch". If you or somebody you know has had
such a sighting or come across what may be evidence supporting the existance
of such an animal, please get in contact with us in one of the following
formats:

o Leave a private message in electronic mail.
o Call Thomas Hill at 216-362-6529.
o Or write:

  Thomas E. Hill
  16124 Richard Dr.
  Brook Park, OH 44142

 Contact with us can be totally anonymous if you wish. We are especially
interested in Ohio sightings but are by no means limited to investigations in
that state. Please, serious responses only.
--
"A large creature about 7 1/2 to 8 foot tall. It was greyish black in color,
and as it went away from me I seen the backside of it walking as a man would
walk on it's hind legs."- Former Sheriff Oliver Potter, Vancouver, Washington
The Cryptozoology Information Network. Want on our Email mailing list? Amiga!
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Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!sun-barr!cs.utexas.edu!torn!maccs!mcshub!physun!bunker
From: [e-mail] (Alex Bunker)
Subject: Re: UFO "October Surprise" and USA TAKEOVER?!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Nntp-Posting-Host: physun.physics.mcmaster.ca
Organization: Dept. of Physics & Astronomy, McMaster University
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1992 14:31:55 GMT
Lines: 17

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gary Stollman) writes:
>I personally don't believe in guns...I say this even though I used a toy
>gun to commit a "crime"...However, when the government actually tries to
>get away with stuff like this, and in my own personal case actually does
>get away with it, I think about a statement a friend of mine made some
>years ago...He said, "Guns made America free!"...You know something...He
>was right...
>        Gary Stollman
>
> This is from
>     [e-mail]
>who doesn't have his (or her) own obnoxious signature yet


In waht way are Canadians Germans UKers and Frenchman less "free"
than americans.
.
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Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
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From: [e-mail] (Ithlial the Archer)
Subject: Re: Ride on John's Back, Please! (Was: Re: Get Off John's Back
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 92 14:35:24 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 28

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Humans: There has been a slight change in the names of the runner of the
>third weekly Astral Convoy. The person whoes first name starts with the
>letter D (D.) was then called R2D2 now wants to be called Bridgit because
                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Holy masquerading androids Batman (TM) I didn't know R2D2 was celtic! and a
deity to boot!

>of her study of King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table. So Bridgit
>it will be.  Oh yes, last week she informs me that she did see and entity
>in her room and it wasn't the bogey man.

Maybe it was Cu-Cuhlainn(sp) ?  He was/is celtic too.

>Don't laugh I just report the facts as they come in.

:)'s for the humor impaired!

Ithlial


I bet the main reason the police keep people away from a plane crash
is they don't want anybody walking in and lying down in the crash
stuff, then, when some comes up, act like they just woke up and go,
"What, was THAT?!"



Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!usc!sdd.hp.com!mips!darwin.sura.net!convex!convex!swarren
From: [e-mail] (Steve Warren)
Subject: Re: Gulf Breeze Six In The News Again
Sender: [e-mail] (news access account)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1992 15:09:36 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Nntp-Posting-Host: magnum.convex.com
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.
Lines: 29

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>And guess what, the bank bail-out is coming! None of the canadates will
>talk about it, but we have 100's of failed banks, and we have another
>bail-out coming.

Looks like we're already doing this.  The Fed lowered interest rates
but the banks didn't.  They're making record profits right now.  Everyone
who is in major credit card debt is bailing them out.  That is the Federal
bank bailout program.

What is astonishing to me is that many banks are in such bad shape that
even this cash cow is not enough to keep them out of the red.

As far as Nazi plots to arrest everyone, it's not going to happen unless
a lot of other things happen first.  Americans are too independant.  There
has to be a long-term focused propoganda campaign before a society like
ours will buy into something like that (not saying we are immune - just
that the bad guys have their work cut out for them if there really is
some kind of conspiracy like this).

Even Adolf Hitler was not able to just go out and arrest everyone he
didn't like in the beginning.  It took years for him to get Germany
sufficiently dumbed-down to the point that he could accomplish the
sweeping atrocities he was responsible for.
--
            _.
--Steve   ._||__    Welcome to the World's First GaAs Supercomputer
  Warren   v\ *|    -----------------------------------------------
             V
Xref: news.uiowa.edu talk.religion.newage:11107 alt.alien.visitors:7996 sci.skeptic:28540
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!stanford.edu!rutgers!netnews.upenn.edu!grip.cis.upenn.edu!jmv
From: [e-mail] (Jean-Marc Vezien)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Ride on John's Back, Please! (Was: Re: Get Off John's Back
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Aug 92 15:05:49 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>   <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Followup-To: talk.religion.newage
Organization: GRASP Lab
Lines: 21
Nntp-Posting-Host: grip.cis.upenn.edu

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] writes:

> I just got some information through another person from a conventional
> scientist by the name of Edward P. Gardner, Ph.D. Mr. Gardner believes that
> a person has 7 bodies and they are called the

> physical, astral, mental, emational, christed and soul.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 1,2,3,4,5,6.
>The first four are earth
> plane frequencies and the last three are universal cosmic frequencies.
> John Winston.


Conventionnal scientist ? Well, at least conventional scientist can count...
up to 6. I guess the 7th body just fell off the last Astral Convoy !!


John, stop INHALING.


JM.
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From: [e-mail] (Robert R. Mitchell (SEAS admin))
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Abduction claims
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Aug 92 16:02:04 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail]
Organization: Cyberdyne Systems
Lines: 18

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
:If someone claims to be logical, let alone scientific, let alone some manner
:of spokesperson (not for a group but for a *stance*) then we have the right
:to demand mental clarity and, even more important, intellectual integrity.
:When a person jumps immediately in with a pronouncement -- without thoughtful
:consideration of pertinent evidence both pro and con -- then what we are
:seeing is not so much an exercise of judgement as an exhibition of ego.

Or, to paraphrase Monty Python, there is more to skepticism than
the automatic gainsaying of unconventional ideas.



--
DISCLAIMER:                                              | Bob Mitchell
"Don't blame _me_, _I_ didn't do it!" --Krusty the Clown | [e-mail]
"Ididn'tdoitnobodysawmeyoucan'tproveanything!" --Bartman | DOD#[classified]
"Computers are ruining this country." --Al Bundy         | 1987 VT700c
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!portal!cup.portal.com!Jeffrey_-_Papineau
From: [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Re: Hatton: CIA or ET?
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu,  6 Aug 92 09:22:48 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
References:  <[e-mail]>
Lines: 7

Sorry, that was not Mr. Sutton that had replyed so elegantly, but Mr.
Showen. Credit were it is due. I'll have to contact him personally, since
it looks like he is my neighbor down the street...
Jeff-
ok
Damn Portal! UI sucks. Netcom: 408 241-9760
ok
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!destroyer!fmsrl7!lynx!carina.unm.edu!cary
From: [e-mail] (Ithlial the Archer)
Subject: Re: Ley Lines
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 92 16:05:46 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 47

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Ley People: Here's some more information from Shaari about Ley Lines
>and the Nasca Lines.----So what is happening is that grids with their
>{light} were brought from another dimension, from another universe, through
>a black hole, was was waiting in position around the earth's orbit, and

Hold just a sec.  There are some pretty serious problems with putting
decent sized black hole in earth orbit.

According to a previous post of John's, it took 144x144x144 of these
grids to cover the earth if I understand what you said.  If I didn't it may
be 144x144x144x144 of them.  In the first case the grids are more than
10 km across, in the second they are about 1 km across.  These dimensions
correspond to a black hole of 100,000 or 1,000,000 times the mass of the
earth.  As long as these objects are farther than a few million miles
from the earth they won't tear it apart straight away.  Rather the the
heating of the earth from the tides that such a massive object would
cause in the crust would probably melt it.  (A good example of this
is Saturns moon, Enceladus, made mostly of water/water ice.  Its interior
is kept liquid via the tidal heating from its interaction with Saturn.)
It was such a nice planet before it melted, darn.

Another glaring problem is the fact that these masses are comparable
to, or larger than the mass of the sun.  In other words the orbits of
every object in the solar system is going to get shot to hell.  Good
bye habitable planet.

The last major problem is that black holes this small have very high
field gradients.  In other words parts of an object closer to the center
experience a significantly higher gravitaional force than those farther
away.  This phenomenon occurs on scales much smaller than the size of
the black hole.  Thus objects that get too close (especially inside
the event horizon) get pulled apart.

I'd feel alot safer if these ETI's would keep their black holes away
from us!

Ithlial


My opinions, mine, mine, mine!

To me, boxing is like ballet, except there's no music, no choreography,
and the dancers hit eachother.



Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:8000 alt.conspiracy:17518 alt.activism:30725 sci.skeptic:28543 misc.headlines:23300
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Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!destroyer!fmsrl7!lynx!carina.unm.edu!cary
From: [e-mail] (Ithlial the Archer)
Subject: Re: UFO "October Surprise" and USA TAKEOVER?!
Message-ID: <dxxmh![e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 92 16:11:17 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Lines: 19

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gary Stollman) writes:
>I personally don't believe in guns...I say this even though I used a toy
              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Yeah well I don't beleive in cars, so now I have to walk everywhere!

:)'s for the humor impaired.


Ithlial

My opinions, mine, mine, mine!

I bet the main reason the police keep people away from a plane crash
is they don't want anybody walking in and lying down in the crash
stuff, then, when some comes up, act like they just woke up and go,
"What, was THAT?!"



Xref: news.uiowa.edu alt.alien.visitors:8001 alt.paranormal:5603
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!tymix!olivea!hal.com!decwrl!csus.edu!umn.edu!lynx!carina.unm.edu!cary
From: [e-mail] (Ithlial the Archer)
Newsgroups: ba.seminars,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: Viewing High Strangeness Material
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Aug 92 16:17:48 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Lines: 27

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Thad P Floryan) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]>
>[e-mail] (Jon Roland) writes:
>
>|  [...]
>|  A private remote-viewing group of scientists and engineers is now accepting
>|  new members. If you are intellectually curious you will enjoy this unusual
>|  form of recreation. The material we will view includes well-substantiated
>|  [...]
>
>What is "remote-viewing"?

I think you need to ask what is "private remote-viewing"?
>
>Thad Floryan [ [e-mail] ]

It sounds like a group of peeping toms with telscopes. :)

What is "intellectually curious"?

Ithlial


My opinions, mine, mine, mine!

To me, boxing is like ballet, except there's no music, no choreography,
and the dancers hit eachother.
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!acd4!TEFS1!gvb
From: [e-mail] (Gregg Brown)
Subject: Re: Where are you ET? (was Re: Moon Activities?)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1992 14:06:06 GMT
Lines: 41

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Steve Gamble x3293) writes:

[Content of Michael Corbin's message and Steve's response deleted]

>
>POSTSCRIPT:
>
>Around 90% of UFO reports can be explained after careful investigation
>to be mis-identifications of man-made objects or of natural phenomena.

I believe this is correct. Can anyone substantiate this?


>Around six months ago, I posted inviting those people who felt that
>the remaining 10% could be explained as being Flying Saucers (i.e
>extraterrestrial spacecraft) to present their evidence.
>
>This generated zero response. Does this mean you guys have no
>evidence? Here is another chance to present it.

Maybe they were just shy. Just kidding... This whole thing is so
volatile that in a lot of cases, I see people shying away from non
believers. You may have presented the question that led people to
think what you were really asking was: "Hey! stupid UFO/Alien believers,
come make fool out of yourselves and give me some proof to this
malarky so I can laugh at you even more because I will never believe
it even if they land in my front yard and knock on my door." I am not
saying you were inappropriate in your asking of the questions, I am
just saying that they may of percieved you as being a "non believer
no matter what". Try asking your question again. Make it sound like
you want to believe. I bet you won't be able to read all the
responses.

>
>Steve.


Gregg.



Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Tom Randolph)
Subject: Re: K-2 Radio Transmission
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET News System)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date:  6 AUG 92 11:54:42
Lines: 8


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Gregg Brown) writes...
>I have just received the K-2 Radio Transmission recording. Its on a 60
>Gregg.

How about a summary? Anything worth hearing?

-Tom [e-mail]
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
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From: [e-mail] (Duane P Mantick)
Subject: Re: Guns and Skeptics
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET news)
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Date:  6 Aug 92 17:23:50 GMT
Lines: 85

[e-mail] (Daniel A Ashlock) writes:

>In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Gerry Roston)
>writes:
>> Too many people have been brainwashed into believing that guns are bad
>> and that guns cause crime.  This simply isn't true.

>   Well, guns may not be bad but people are stupid.  My understanding is that

    Which is the point - guns don't kill (by themselves), *people*
do the killing (using the gun as an instrument....and if you ban the guns
the killing will NOT stop....)

    People who are stupid are stupid ALL the time, not just when they
have a gun in their hands.  Said stupid people probably cause more
deaths on the highway than they do with guns.  They cause more accidental
deaths in the home by means other than guns.  Stupidity does NOT
begin the minute that that person picks up a projectile firing device,
not does it transfer by osmosis from that device.

>Saying guns can protect you from crime, or oppression, is
>equally stupid.  Let's take your Tian-an-men square example and contrast it
>with whats going on in Serbia and Bosnia.  Lot-o-guns there: in the hands of
>recently officialized citizen millitia.  So your idea that guns have any
>relation to freedom from opression, mayhem, etc. is just as bogus as the
>assumption they cause it.

    BZZZZT! You neglected to mention that said officialized militia
appears to have been put forth by persons who have a motive of
racial and/or ethnic genocide; and it also appears that said militia
*agrees* with said motive.  On the other hand, the Chinese who were killed
in the Square wanted FREEDOM, which has been proven to be a quantity
worth fighting and risking dying for.  Those are two EXTREMELY
different things.   The guns themselves do nothing until the persons
who intend to use them actually pick them up.  You can use a gun
to *suppress* freedoms; you can use a gun to *obtain* freedoms.  Either
way it is a matter of MOTIVE.

>The guns are pretty dammned irrelevant.  There are counter examples
>like the town in Florida that made gun ownership an all-but-civic-duty, and
>prevented the south Florida crime spree from entering their town.  Big whoop.
>They still have a lot of problems related to the effects of the crime spree
>on the reigional economy and politics.

    I doubt that the gun is too terribly irrelevant to the
crooks (or anyone else for that matter) who suddenly find themselves
being sighted moments before that hunk o' lead smashes through their
skull or whatever other part.  Nor is keeping crime OUT of your
town irrelevent; certainly not to a person who might otherwise have been
the victim of a violent crime.  Yup, maybe the economics of crime
still remains, but losing a little $$$$ is a hell of a lot less
significant than losing (perhaps) your life.

>   The idea that anything other than informed, well educated citizens acting
>on behalf of the common good can protect freedom is silly.  Guns don't protect
>freedom.  People do.  When you need a gun to protect yourself you've already
>lost a great deal of freedom.

    Tell THAT to the guys who punted the British out of the soon-
to-be USA in the latter part of the 1700's.  THEIR guns regained lost
freedom for us as in you and me.

    Had our forefathers NOT taken up arms against the Brits, the
tyranny and opressions would have only gotten WORSE, not better.

    Intelligence and education alone is NOT enough to protect
yourselves when some tyrants' lead starts flying.....


>   Govenment of, by, and for the people will do it.  Guns only might and
>the body count would be remarkable.  For that matter, shooting at an opressive
>government is stupid.  I can make time bombs in my garage; these are much better
>weapons against opression than guns.

    Time bombs aren't always useful for hitting a moving target at
a couple hundred yards; or at least not with any sense of accuracy.
A good sniper with a good rifle, on the other hand, can select
individual targets of high value at long range and take them out.
Your time bomb simply wipes out everything within a certain radius
whether it has anything to do with the conflict or not.  For every
one scumbag your time bomb kills, it will probably also kill 1 + X
civilians who just MIGHT be on YOUR side.....or would have been.

    Duane

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From: [e-mail] (Duane P Mantick)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,alt.activism,sci.skeptic,misc.headlines,alt.politics.bush
Subject: Re: guns and criminals
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Aug 92 17:47:47 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (USENET news)
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Lines: 14

[e-mail] (Loren I. Petrich) writes:

>    And one should learn ways of self-defense using one's own
>body, so one can deal with assailants not equipped with guns.

    This argument presumes, of course, that you actually see or hear
said assailant before the knife sinks into you.

    Well, any assailant who attacks an unknown quantity without
a reasonable amount of overwhelming force is an idiot and deserves
anything that happens to him/her....


Duane
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!caen!sdd.hp.com!apollo.hp.com!netnews
From: [e-mail] (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: We have met the enemy and they are us.
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1992 18:36:04 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
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Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Gregg Brown) writes:
>
>Thanks Jim. Thats an angle I had not approached. So far I have just
>a few facts on all this "abduction thing".
>
>#1: They have and probably are occuring. This points out the fact that I
>    do not believe the people are "just dreaming". I beleive the events
>    really did take place, at least in some cases. In others, it may just
>    be a dream. The abductions are taking place. People are being (of have
>    been) examined.

  Why do you call this a "fact"?   Or are you just referring to your belief
  as the fact, i.e., "It is a fact that I believe this."?

  In the absence of ANY physical evidence of adbuctions the best you can
  say about them is that they are *claims* of abduction.   Some people
  have scars, but scars don't tell you much about their origin and
  certainly say nothing about abductions.   Some people claim to have
  had removed artifacts implanted by the aliens, but no one has ever
  produced one of these for study.  (although several have claimed to).

  The sheer number of people making abduction claims means nothing ---
  millions of people claim to have, or to have had,  personal contact
  with God (or the diety of their choice) but this doesn't offer much
  persuasive evidence that God (or the diety of their choice) exists
  or has the attributes they ascribe to <Him | Her | It | Them>.

  So the bottom line is that there's no evidence that abductions deserve
  the moniker "fact".


---peter




Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!mcsun!sunic!liuida!isy!isy.liu.se!stefang
From: [e-mail] (Stefan Gustavson)
Subject: Re: Moon Activities?y
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Lord of the News)
Organization: Dept of EE, University of Linkoping
References: <[e-mail]>
Date:  6 Aug 92 17:25:43 GMT
Lines: 16

[e-mail] (Steve MacDonald) writes:

>Just to let people know there was an incident in the 11th century where several
>monks in England saw a large explosion on the moon. It scared the crap out of
>them and they thought the world was going to end. It could be very possible
>that they witnessed a large alien ship crashing on the moon or more likely just
>regular alien lunar activity.

>        no guns
>                Steve Macdonald

Or, even more likely, a meteorite crash on the moon.
Sorry to point out the obvious. Didn't mean to spoil your fun.

       /Stefan G ([e-mail])

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!apollo.hp.com!netnews
From: [e-mail] (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Outlaw guns from Aliens?
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1992 18:44:28 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <p!wmn![e-mail]>
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Keywords: Aliens, Guns
Lines: 18

 [e-mail] (Andrew Michael Vebber) writes:
>Should Aliens from Outer Space have the right to bear arms?

  I dunno  . . .  how many arms did you have in mind?   What if
  they're more like tentacles or something?

  The other night I was awakened by this huge multicolored flying
  saucer over my back yard and I ran out there with my shotgun
  and there was the "thing" with about 10 or 12 arms just descending
  from the bottom of the UFO.  Well I got off a couple of blasts
  and he scooted up there and took off so fast I didn't have time
  to reload.   Damn flying saucers, third time this week, too.
  Next time I'm gonna use something stronger than birdshot.


---peter


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From: [e-mail] (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Ride on John's Back, Please! (Was: Re: Get Off John's Back
Sender: [e-mail] (Usenet News)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1992 18:55:40 GMT
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In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Dear Astral Travel Participants: I just got back from the Astral Convoy
>and I truely feel that I am not all here.

  Let's go with that thought, John . . .



---peter



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From: [e-mail] (David R. Stepien)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: RE: THE NATURE OF REALITY
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Aug 92 19:20:42 GMT
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I have been reading alt.alien.visitors for about two weeks now,
and had been considering composing a posting when I came across
the article on THE NATURE OF REALITY, and found a lot of the
words had been taken right out of my mouth.  For the past year I
have been delving deeply into this subject.  From the research I
have done, I would highly recommend the following materials to
anyone who is truly trying to understand it:

Books:

1. Matrix II - see article 7932 for info
2. The Gulf Breeze Sightings - Ed Walters
3. UFO's - Above Top Secret - Timothy Goode
4. A Strange Harvest - Linda Moulton Howe (cattle mutilations,
   Gov't coverup)
5. Flying Saucers are Real - Maj Donald Keyhoe (Keyhoe resigned
   from Project Bluebook disgusted by what he saw to be an
   obvious coverup)

Videos:

1. Crop Circle Communique - Linda Moulton Howe Productions
   Great aerial footage, compendium of threories, analysis, etc

2. A Strange Harvest - Linda Moulton Howe Productions
   1983 documentary on cattle mutilations

3. Sightings - UFO's - originally broadcast on Fox Network
   Well done overview of entire subject - Includes interviews
   with Robert Lazar and George Knapp, an investigative reporter
   from Las Vegas.

One thing I can say is that after studying these materials,
attending UFO group meetings, and listening in person to abductee
accounts, I find it impossible to dismiss the phenomenon.  What
makes this such a difficult area to clarify, however, is that the
core truth is obscured from two sides.  On one hand we have the
Government/Air Force, who by concealing their own information and
concocting lie after lie to feed to the public, have done an
amazing job of deluding vast numbers of us into the comfortable
conception that all UFO witnesses and contactees are lunatics.
On the other side, the people who are trying to "cash in" on the
phenomenon by building bogus ET cults and disseminating phoney
stories and hoaxes, are no less guilty.  When researching UFO's,
one must always confront the question of "where does the truth
stop and the slop begin?", because there's plenty of slop out
there.

The book Matrix II is a good example of this.  Matrix II is a
treasure trove of information, including newspaper clippings,
historical reviews of the Roswell crash, Interviews, etc.  Yet
there is also what seems to be a good dose of nonsense thrown in
- claims of huge underground tunnel networks under the U.S.
populated by some subterranean intelligent species, claims that
Bush and Gorbachev are robots, etc.  Thus, even within a single
book, one has to ask, where do you draw the line?

All one has to do is read through alt.alien.visitors to find the
same thing going on.  One has to wade through all the stories of
astral traveling with R2D2, personal attacks, and recipes for
cooking greys to find the few really useful pieces of
information. This forum has a great potential for sharing
knowledge and coming to some kind of consensus on what is really
going on, if people would only start treating it a little more
seriously.

So, for some serious discussion:

1. CATTLE MUTILATIONS

One thing I haven't seen discussed here recently is cattle
mutilations.  A lot of the skeptics in this newsgroup constantly
say there is no hard evidence, and in my view this is some of the
hardest.  It has been established that surgery is performed on
these animals with a precision laser type intrument.  Their
rectums and sexual organs are usually removed, along with
tounges, eyes, etc.  The animals are found dead in a field with
absolutely no tracks surrounding the bodies.  There have been
cases where the animal was seen alive only a few hours earlier.
There have been eyewitness sightings of both unexplained lights
and craft in the sky during nights preceeding the discoveries of
the bodies, along with similar daylight sightings of saucer craft
in the area.  Two ranchers who staked out a feedlot where a rash of
mutilations was occuring reported seeing two greys "float"
into the feedlot in the middle of the night, at which point they
left to get the local sherrif.  When they returned the greys were
gone, along with one of the cows.  An abductee recalled under
regression said that she had witnessed a calf being raised into a
ship via a beam.  The number of mutilation cases is now in the
thousands, and they have been reported all over the world
(someone in here asked why this in only occurring in the U.S. -
it's not!).   Over and over it is the same story.  Of course
there have been debunkers who point the finger at predators or
cults, but these theories can not possibly explain the HARD
EVIDENCE.  Media coverage of mutilations peaked in the early
eighties, but is now nearly non-existent, even though it is
continuing to happen.

2. ABDUCTEE REGRESSION ACCOUNTS

   The following "explanations" have been  proposed:

a. Somehow, the hypnotist is planting the abduction memories.

   Response - Having seen videos of several actual sessions,
   and read transcripts of several more, I find it impossible
   to believe that this is the entire basis of the phenomenon.
   The detail that comes out of these people in response to a
   simple question, such as "what did they do to you", is
   incredible, consistent from case to case, and certainly
   beyond the imagination of many of them.  They are not being
   fed this detail in any way whatsoever - common sense says
   it must be coming from elsewhere.  I do however believe that
   an unprofessional hypnotists can plant or corrupt memories,
   and that this may be occurring, in a MINORITY of the cases.

b. People are having mass hallucinations base on the movies
   "Close Encounters", "ET", etc.

   Come on!  This is clearly a case of art imitating life, not
   vice versa.  A great point someone made earlier is why don't
   people mass hallucinate "Alien" type creatures.  Why not
   Freddy Krueger, or Superman for that matter?

3. CROP CIRCLES

Cerologists, as they call themselves, are now fairly certain that
they can distinguish "authentic" circles from hoaxes, of which
there are plenty (Doug and Dave's are the most famous). The main
feature is that the stalks of the crop are bent as if they were
heated, and there is no cell damage!  Circles have been found in
"unbendable" plants.  These plants would snap like celery if a
human tried to bend them, but they were found bent at perfect 90
degree angles, again with no damage.  Many of the formations have
been found to contain within their designs precise mathematical
ratios that correspond to the diatonic scale, and also contain
proofs of various mathematical theorems (see cover story of Feb
issue of Science News).  Soil samples from circles contain trace
radioactive isotopes not naturally found there.  Again, lights
and craft are commonly seen in the vicinity prior to circle
discoveries.

What do the skeptics say - "Oh it's weather, or it's people with
boards and strings."  Give me a break.

4. SIGHTINGS

There have been so many sightings it would be impossible to
catalog them.  Many are by pilots, even astronomers.  I highly
recommend reading the book on the sightings at Gulf Breeze.

FINALLY.....A WORD FROM THE "SANE"....

So lets just close our eyes and try and think up an explanation
for these things.  Gee, what could it be?  It can't be the
obvious thing - ALIEN VISTORS - because we all KNOW that this
just can't be.  Our government tells us so, and most of us have
personally never seen one, and nothing can possibly exist that we
haven't personally seen.  It must be that all these thousands of
abductees, scientists, pilots and witnesses are crazy gullible
boobs.  Yeah, that's it!  Thank God there's people like us, who
know the absolute truth about everything, to set them straight.

AND A WORD FROM THE REALLY SANE....

So lets just close our eyes and try and think up an explanation
for these things.  Gee, what could it be?  It must be the obvious
thing - ALIEN VISTORS - and they must be here to save the planet
and the lady I met at the Psychic fair can talk to them and she
says I am one of the ones who is going to get a spot on the ships
when the world blows up in 1998, so I better send a bunch of
money to this guy in France so he can build a building shaped
like the craft that came and talked to him and now I understand
that the Miller beer commercial is really an attempt by our
Government to introduce us to them...

AND A WORD FROM ME....

So lets just close our eyes and try and think up an explanation
for these things.  Gee, what could it be?  It must be the obvious
thing - ALIEN VISTORS - period.

_________________________________________________________________
David Stepien
Email : [e-mail]
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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Newsgroups: alt.activism,alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.bush,misc.headlines,sci.skeptic,talk.politics.guns
Path: news.uiowa.edu!uunet!tcsi.com!iat.holonet.net!uupsi!psinntp!dg-rtp!leonardo!meyers
From: [e-mail] (Bill Meyers)
Subject: Re: Outlaw guns? NO!  Register guns! YES! (was: Re: UFO "October
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Sender: [e-mail] (Bill Meyers)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 92 20:21:50 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
Organization: N/I
Lines: 187

Hereby forwarded to the original newsgroups, as a courtesy from t.p.g.   :-)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (David L. Veal) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (robert i kesten) writes:
>
>>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Lee Campbell) writes:
>>> and USA TAKEOVER?!)
>>> Keywords:
>>>
>>> In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Gerry
>>Roston) writes:
>>> - This does not belong here, but I will post it anyway...
>>> -
>>> - When you look at statistics related to crime, etc, you will find the
>>> - following:
>>> - 1-The US does have a slightly higher murder rate than other countries,
>>> - although it is typically ranked between 5 and 10 on the list of
>>> - countries with the highest murder rates.
>>> - 2-If you remove from the statistics the large US urban regions of NYC,
>>> - Washington DC, Detroit, you will find that the crime rate in the US is
>>> - LOWER than many other countries in the world.
>>> - 3-The above mentioned cities
>>> -  -have the most restricitve gun control laws in the country
>>> -  -have some of the worst "ghetto" neighborhoods
>>> -
>>> - CONCLUSION: Guns are not the cause of crime.  There is absolutely NO
>>> - evidence to even suggest a connection between gun ownership and crime.
>>> - The problems in our country are economic problems.
>>>
>>>
>>> BZZZZ! Sorry! Your conclusion goes too far! On the basis of the data
>>> presented, you cannot conclude "there is absolutely NO evedence to
>>> even suggest a connection between gun ownership and crime." Would you
>>> care to try again? You can conclude something along the lines of
>>> "In a country where someone can buy a few handguns a week in N. Carolina
>>> and bring them up on the bus and sell them in N.Y., gun registration
>>> laws and waiting periods that apply only in N.Y. state will not have
>>> any noticible effect."
>>>
>     The obvious, and oft mentioned, logical flaw in that argument is that
>if guns are a primary source of violent crime in New York, and gun control
>in New York is ineffective because guns can be bought elsewhere, then why
>are those other places not suffering similar violent, and gun, crime rates?
>
>     Further, why should, say, Virginia, which does not have the crime
>problem that New York has, suffer under legislation for New York's problems?
>
>>> - Consider the maxim: If guns are outlawed, ony outlaws will have guns.
>>>
>>> Well said! Luckily, nobody is talking about outlawing guns. What we
>>> are talking about is licenses, registrations, and waiting periods
>>> before purchasing. We accept the concept of fishing licenses, clamming
>>> licenses, driving licenses, etc. Please don't confuse licensing guns
>>> with outlawing guns.
>
>     In point of fact, you are absolutely incorrect.  Off the top of my
>head, I can think of NBC News head Micheal Gartner, who has publically called
>for the repeal of the second amendment and banning of all hand guns (or is
>the President of NBC news a fringe element lunatic?)  What about Senator
>Chafee, who introduced a bill in Congress to ban all handguns?  Is *he*
>a lunatic fringe element?  Or Handgun Control Inc, the nationan's foremost
>gun control lobbying group, which pushes for registration and waiting
>periods, has *publically said* that these are just the first step in
>*totally* outlawing private ownership of guns.
>
>      Or the recent proposed Constitutional Amendment to repeal the
>Second Amendment.  Or the Washington D.C. city council which considered
>using their registration lists to confiscate guns.  When reminded they
>had promised not to use them for that purpose. the sponsor of the
>consfiscation move retorted, "Well, I didn't promise them anything!"
>
>      Are *all* of these an example of *nobody* wanting to outlaw guns?
>
>>>
>>> - However, all of this misses the main issue:
>>> - A well-regulated militia, being necessary for a free state, the right
>>> - of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
>>>
>>> Too late! Did you know that to own a machine gun or other fully
>>> automatic weapon, you need a special permit from the Bureau of
>>> ATF, and the the Bureau reserves the right to inspect your weapon
>>> yearly? We already accept these limitations on machine guns! The
>>> question is, should we register handguns? Why don't you direct
>
>     "Accept" is not entirely accurate.  More along the lines of,
>"We have no choice," but to accept.  BTW, though, technically these
>are not permits or licenes.  Class III firearms are registered for the
>purposes of taxation, not posession.  Further, even with this gun-
>control dream, in '86 they *stopped* allowing new registrations of
>Class III firearms.  That is, they wil not allow new Class III's
>into circulation.  This does not strike you as a step toward total
>outlawing?
>
>      If the system worked *so* well, (The only cases of criminal misuse
>of legally owned Class III weapons have been commited by police officers)
>why restrict them further if there is not another motive?
>
>[Commentary on reasoning behind Second Amendment deleted for space ...]
>
>>>
>>> Well argued! However, you have completely missed the *true* debate.
>>> The true debate is over handgun registration, manditory waiting
>>> periods for handgun purchase, and elimination of "cop-killer" bullets.
>>> Should we do any of these things? The NRA says "NO!"  I say "YES!" to
>>> all of them.
>
>Let's look at these one at a time:
>
>1 - Handgun Registration
>
>     Firearm registration has been used as a precursor to total confiscation
>in Germany, Jamaica, Greece, and a number of other countries.  In the United
>States, Washington D.C. almost used their lists for confiscation, and several
>other places *have* done so.  It happened in New York.
>     There is a long history of using registration lists for confiscation
>of weapons, regardless of the promises of politicians against it.
>
>2 - Mandatory Waiting Periods
>
>     California should be a waiting period dream.  What started off as
>a 24 hour "cooling off" period has been extended four times and now stands
>at 15 days, with no impact on crime.
>     No criminological study has ever found that waiting periods reduce
>"heat of passion," killings, or any other form of crime.  In
>contrast, California, in spite of its continuing gun law crusade,
>continues to have record crime increases.
>     Further, a waiting period is not necessary for a background
>check.  If a police officer can check your criminal record and check for
>outstanding warrants on you from his cruiser, why should a gun shop not
>be able to conduct an similar instant check?  Answer, they can.
>     Virtually all waiting periods suggested on a national level have
>a discretionary aspect to them.  That is, there is a way for local law
>enforcement to indefinately extend the waiting period, often not allowing
>for any sort of appeal on the part of the gun buyer.  If the local police
>chief doesn't want guns sold, guns don't get sold.  This was a, and
>continues to be, a major flaw in "The Brady Bill."
>     Finally, waiting periods can result in de-facto registration.  The
>Brady Bill required that a description of the gun, as well as a serial
>number.  For what possible reason would they need these if *not* for
>registration.  A check on the *individual* does not require information on
>the weapon involved.
>
>2 - "Cop-Killer" bullets
>
>     The "Cop-killer" (KTW) armor piercing bullet never has and doesn't.
>It is probably one of the best examples of media manipulation against the NRA
>you are likely to find.
>     The KTW bullet was originally designed for use by law-enforcement
>and was *never* sold to the general public.  No police officer was *ever*
>killed by the KTW bullet.
>     Gun Control organizations said the teflon coated bullet was armor
>piercing, and would penetrate police soft body armor.  In fact, the teflon
>coating was designed for increased penetration of hard, smooth surface
>such as car windshields and doors, and actually had *reduced* penetration
>of standard police bullet-proof vests.
>     The original legislation would have banned all ammunition which could
>penetrate police soft body armor.  Since this armor was designed to repel
>handgun fire, it was less effective against rifle fire.  Thus, the
>legislation would have banned vitually *all* rifle ammuntion, because
>those standard vests were not designed to repel it.
>     The NRA (you know, "rifle association") really had no choice but to
>oppose it.  It was an overly broad, poorly written piece of legislation
>*designed* to force the NRA to oppose it.  When the NRA did, they were
>labeled has opposing the ban of evil "cop-killer" bullets.
>     What was never reported was that the final legislation was drafted with
>the help of the NRA, and banned *only* the "cop-killer" bullet instead
>of virtually *all* ammunition.
>
>>>If you, Gerry, want to enter into the real debate, then
>>> perhaps you can argue why there should be no registration of handguns,
>>> no waiting period to purchase them, and why we should continue to sell
>>> copkiller bullets.
>
>     See above.
>
>>>                              - Lee Campbell  <[e-mail]>
>
>     Where us this coming from?  If Mr. Campbell does not read t.p.g
>he probably won't see the replies to these messages.
>
>===========================================================================
>|David Veal  [e-mail]  University of Tennessee             |
>|                                     Division of Continuing Education    |
>===========================================================================
>


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From: [e-mail] (Robert J. Wade)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,alt.activism,sci.skeptic,misc.headlines,alt.politics.bush
Subject: Re: UFO "October Surprise" and USA TAKEOVER?!
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Aug 92 19:38:50 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]> <1992Aug3.033213.4155@anasaz>
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In article <1992Aug3.033213.4155@anasaz> billy@anasaz (Bill Moore) writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Duane P Mantick) writes:
>->
>->[gobbledeegook deleted]
>->
>->That was, without a doubt, the biggest bunch of pure manure I have read
>->ANYwhere on ANY newsgroup.....
>->
>Actually, a second civil war in the United States isn't such a far fetched
>idea.  It's the rage the world around ane we certainly have as many regional
>differences as counties that are breaking up now.  There's a serious movement
>in Alaska now calling for sessation and California would clearly be better
>off without us.
>
>Look at LA.  You had Koreans defending their stores at gun point and, a couple
>of more nights, the skin heads would have come out.  Sooner if a black gang
>had decided to press the idea of movement into white neighboorhoods.  So,
>while I don't think it's a conspiracy, the ideas in this post weren't so
>far off (except for the part about Bush/Quayle being in office next year.)
>
>\>Duane
>
>     Bill Moore     [e-mail]    [phone]
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
what was the original post on this invasion thing anyway?
can someone email me the original or repost this alien invasion thing??
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From: [e-mail] (Warren Burstein)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Hatton: CIA or ET
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: 6 Aug 92 10:04:47 GMT
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Oh my!  Fradulent channelers!  How do we distinguish between the real
thing and Brand X?
--
/|/-\/-\       I'll leave you with this saying:
 |__/__/_/     Loni Anderson's hair should be LEGALIZED!!
 |warren@
/ nysernet.org